flintlock firearms

[5pjrh4r3]

In-game jumping from bow/arrow to modern and then futuristic weapons I feel like flintlock (and maybe percussion but not matchlock as a compromise) firearms are missing.  I don't think the game needs "more guns" in the sense that it needs more than one representative of a generic type (assault rifle etc.) but I think adding flintlock pistols/rifles and the ability to craft them while at the same time making modern and futuristic weapons increasingly rare might satiate player need to craft additional items/craft guns.

[Johnny Masters]

My take is that the jump from medieval-like weapons to "modern" to futuristic is more of a resource availability thing rather than a technological one.

I.e., once you learn that a wheel should be round you dont need to make a square one anymore.

But i guess if the game leans toward more granulanity a improvised cheap gun could be a thing, but i wouldnt get too specific towards calling it a matchlock, wheellock or flintlock or...

[kingtyris]

I've thought about this before as well. I think it would be cool to see a wall of settler-level pawns assault you with a line formation of muskets.

But as for their actual value in-game, I'm not sure adding them would really deepen gameplay. Like Johnny said, its mostly about the tribals not having access to the same technology. Adding ANOTHER tech level would just create more item spam.

[Argon]

Or how about outlander towns having an intermediate level of equipment.
Example: Instead of a member of an outlander town coming with an R4 they would come with a Springfield trapdoor 45/70 rifle.

-Argon

[Vaperius]

My take is that the jump from medieval-like weapons to "modern" to futuristic is more of a resource availability thing rather than a technological one.

I.e., once you learn that a wheel should be round you dont need to make a square one anymore.

But i guess if the game leans toward more granulanity a improvised cheap gun could be a thing, but i wouldnt get too specific towards calling it a matchlock, wheellock or flintlock or...

To be fair...the flintlocks would be from societies that still make square wheels...going by your metaphor anyway

There should be 18th and 19th century weapons just as well.

[Johnny Masters]

To be fair...the flintlocks would be from societies that still make square wheels...going by your metaphor anyway

There should be 18th and 19th century weapons just as well.

Hehehe, i'd say you missed the purpose of my metaphor then

What I'm saying is that we don't need to recreate all the technological steps of gun crafting to reach the most hi-tech stuff, that would mean a lot of steps and a lot of similar and - in game terms - redundant steps, like going from fire lances to muskets to matchlocks to wheellocks and flintlock to caps to... This is not age of empires, they are not "discovering" new techs, they are rediscovering it, so there are a lot of steps they could skip, and i think all these "locks" type are one of the "skippable" ones, unless someone who understands guns better presents a case, which i'm all open for.

In game and shallow-gun understanding, there's no pointing in using "obsolete" tech. Note the marks, because there's a difference between obsolete and primitive tech. Primitive tech is not obsolete if its all you can make or if its still efficient in what it does. A tech is obsolete if there are better ways to do the same stuff.

But i'm saying this because i believe that if you have the resources to craft a flintlock you could very well just go ahead and craft a "proper" gun, but if someone more knowledgeable presents the case that there's a decent enough jump from flints to repeaters (as in bows to repeaters) then I'd say sure, lets have flints, otherwise i think it's a unnecessary step just for the sake of unnecessary step.

[Cracker21]

I see both sides. I play a lot but never really mess with crafting weapons so I don't know much about what you can craft right now but I think what the original point was that colonist shouldn't b able to just automatically be  able to craft a charge rifle. And I agree. But I also see the point of "why would you build a musket when you come from a civilization that uses charge rifles". See Muskets are very simple, basically it's just a metal tube with a small hole on one side where the powder can be lit. My 12 year old cousin actually made a musket out of pipe that shot lead sinkers through plywood, meaning that uneducated colonist or even gun smiths with limited resources could make these. However if you can just simply plop down from space and instantly build a solar panel and collect electricity this argument is completely invalid. 

[Johnny Masters]

(...)However if you can just simply plop down from space and instantly build a solar panel and collect electricity this argument is completely invalid. 

Yeah, that's the gist of it. Also, i understand and even support granularity in tech (and other complexities like chain production), i'm just pointing that, specifically, flintlocks are not the way to go. If your guys can make solar panels from the go and if they can craft flintlocks, they can craft revolvers, rifles, etc. But i agree, crafting a charged rifle should be in another tier.

Also, the quality degrees are already there, so a crude gun could be akin to a flintlock, or something like that.

Or how about outlander towns having an intermediate level of equipment.
Example: Instead of a member of an outlander town coming with an R4 they would come with a Springfield trapdoor 45/70 rifle.

-Argon

Yep! That makes more sense and fits the lore. Kinda like the tribals using the primitive weapons. But these should be inferior to what you can build.

[5pjrh4r3]

From a pragmatic standpoint I agree that when you can drop out of space with nothing and build solar panels and an electricity grid the idea of making a flintlock pistol instead of a laser pistol is absurd. 

But as an abstract mechanic consistent with the game in its current state I would rather equip my colonist with a flintlock firearm than a bow if the issue is not one of colonist knowledge so much as it is production ability. 

For the sake of  gameplay I believe at a certain point logic must be flexible: I can build an Improvised Turret Machinegun; why not equip every colonist with a machinegun from the get-go?  At my day job I can construct a Wind Turbine but in the evening I can't manage to sew together a decent pair of pants!

I wouldn't want to create an  "Age Of Empires" effect more of a balance between "I know round is the way to go for a wheel, but since I can't create a steel-belted radial, or go down to Pepboys and pick some up, a round one of the best stuff I can make will have to do.  In the same vein why hammer away at a long-sword if I can make a flintlock at more/less the same smithing bench?  While something like an AK-47, a simple firearm, could not be made by a craftsman no matter how good with just basic tools.  In the end I think a balance of making modern and future weapons more rare would make them much more valuable/pivotal in the game when you acquire them.   

[Mathenaut]

From a pragmatic standpoint I agree that when you can drop out of space with nothing and build solar panels and an electricity grid the idea of making a flintlock pistol instead of a laser pistol is absurd. 

/thread

[Gennadios]

I vote that it's kind of an unnecessary tech tier.

The base rifle in the game is the Mosin-Nagant, which was one of the earliest rifles to utilize modern bullets and is supremely usable today.

Let's assume that Ammo is implemented at some point and we have some kind of ammosmithing research branch. Your space-faring starter colonists would know about shells and primers. By the time you have the infrastructure necessary to produce gunpowder, you should in theory have the resources to make a small tube tube and something to create a spark.

Not to mention that the waves upon waves of assaults would probably leave a ton of spent casings that can simply be refilled with powder and topped off with a metal ball.

The other issue is melee weapons, the earlier guns didn't have a range/accuracy advantage over bows and were slow enough to reload to keep hand to hand infantry viable into the 1800s. Add to that the personal shields that are in the game, which completely nullify the primitive firearm advantage.

I'd say maybe add a no research to craft zip gun, something that essentially *is* a metal tube with a hammer, and assume that the colonists are just refilling spent shell casings.

[BetaSpectre]

With the way things currently work melee is pretty balanced with melee. All these flint locks would be are pistols that take sniper time to fire.

The game just won't work well with these mind as well use fists TBH.

[Argon]

With the way things currently work melee is pretty balanced with melee. All these flint locks would be are pistols that take sniper time to fire.

The game just won't work well with these mind as well use fists TBH.

Yep, it would make melee that much more viable.

-Argon

[skullywag]

Where has this "going from bows to guns" come from. Ive never EVER used one ingame. You start with 2 guns....bows arent a tech tier they just happen to be what a native population is using.

[5pjrh4r3]

I've found the bow quite useful in-game (especially the Great Bow with its long reach) as your colony gets large/until you get decent firearms for everyone.