[Answered] Decision behind GiveUpExit mental break being disabled?

[mumblemumble]

I appreciate your willingness to discuss it too! While I've come to expect this from most people here, MANY of my unpopular opinions have won me criticisms much more harsh than yours, both here, and other sites.

I will say that, IF you commited suicide, there would be one less intelligent mind out there capable of thinking, processing, and considering things for themselves. This is something which is strikingly rare in society, and that being lost IN AND OF ITSELF is a tragedy. I don't think you truly understand the scope of a death and its impact on the world as a whole. Its not just the mourning, its not just the loss of a family member, employee, ect, its the loss of EVERYTHING IN THE FUTURE they may have provided. This is almost immeasurable in scope, and unless you were a complete scumbag selling drugs to kids for personal profit and raping little girls, I wouldn't wish that on you...but, I doubt you are that.

Another thing to consider : Despite the wealth of diverse ages, ethnicity, backgrounds on ludeon (Ok, I ASSUME this, but I haven't taken a census on it..so sue me... We could all be 20 something white guys, but I doubt that is true haha) Rimworld is STILL a pretty adult game on the whole, mentally, cognitively, and emotionally. It takes fine management, consideration, preparation, reaction to things you do not want, or expect. Granted, maybe this cannot be said for the basebuilder crowd, but on the whole I would say this is true. And if this IS true, isn't it fair to say maybe tackling adult ideas, and issues would be fitting for its nature?

Likewise to you, I wont stop playing if these are never added, but I see them BRINGING more to the game than taking away. Yes, I acknowledge some of these topics may hit nerves. But I view this akin to people rage quitting in a sense  in ANY game after several defeats, OR, having been defeated several times, being frustrated, even angry of meloncholy, but maintaining control of ones self rather than destroying a keyboard / controller  : it is JUST a game, the pain of everyone dying, a colonist getting raped, or a suicide all hurts the same if you are emotionally involved (which rimworld is exceedingly good at) yet some love the game for this, as a sort of mind expander. BUT, we can either let out emotions fly off the handle when something happens, or learn to control them, and deal with what happens. So I guess I just view it as YES, these things are emotional, and provocative, but it is little more than a more sad version of any misfortune we see happening. If someone has the fortitude to play the game, and the fortitude to put up with the hardships, I expect they have the fortitude to put up with uncomfortable ideas, like suicide or rape, and I could even say, these things, if dealt with properly, could even in a way be THERAPEUTIC to some....like seeing a colonist suicidal from a breakup, and a drug addiction, but with perseverance, and pushing through it, coming to stability on the other side... But its NOT without effort, as the player is aware, theres hardships, theres bad days, theres times where you have no idea what to do...But theres light at the end, everyone is loved even if they do not see, or understand it. But looking, asking, and identifying things, even if this process is painful is the VERY first step. One cannot change their reality if they cannot first face it... But I suppose this perspective helps substantially, having my religion. I know we are watched, and cared for in small ways, even if in other ways we are tried. And I accept I might never understand fully the plans for me, even if I crave to know daily.

Well, I must say this is one of my more pleasant exchanges recently, I appreciate that chairman  its nice to have a kind, openminded debate without someone calling me retard for once (not here, by the way mods, on other sites)

Cheers chairman. You seem like a standup person, just know that... And well, an unfortunate part of that is some people will hate you for that in life. But that don't make you any less awesome.

[brcruchairman]

*hugs mumble!* I think we may fundamentally disagree on this particular point, (re: whether Rimworld is an adequate forum for dealing with such subjects) but that's okay! Truth be told, I'm actually pretty stoked that we can talk it over, and maintain our own viewpoints without diminishing the others'. It's almost like we're treating each other with mutual respect or something.

Thank you for your kind words. *hugs!* You're a good guy your own self, and I'm happy I've gotten to talk with you on this great forum. I look forward to many such conversations to come. And it's really, really good to know that the internet has people like you on it; I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see vulnerability met with compassion. Of course, from what you said about harsh criticisms and being called a retard, I'm sure you know. <.< The internet can be a rough place, but it seems to me that this forum is a kind little corner of it. You, sir, are awesome, and I'm grateful for your presence here. ^ ^

[MikeLemmer]

I'm also going to admit that, at the moment, I'm being inconsistent; I love hard moments and situations and the like in RPGs. I feel a thrill whenever I encounter something ambiguous, which makes me stop and stare at the screen for a full five to fifteen minutes, deciding which dialogue option to pick, which is right. For me, however, I feel that a strategy game is a poor platform to give such topics the context and justice they are due.

I feel that it would be difficult to find a revelation in a mood debuff from a bereaved colonist, or an epiphany in a colony's tantrum spiral. I feel it is much easier, both for a player and a designer, to make opportunities for such growth through a more character-driven medium, one in which the actors involved are complex, have thoughts beyond the immediate, and process deeply as individuals, rather than the fairly mechanical and cookie-cutter logic of pawns.

Agreed. As a comparison, Prison Architect, a strategy game about actual prisons, doesn't have suicide or rape occur either. They're hot-button topics with a lot of strong emotions about them, and I think their inclusion in the game would harm it. This is a game about surviving in a hostile world against external threats, not watching your colony rip itself apart.

[mumblemumble]

This is a game about surviving in a hostile world against external threats, not watching your colony rip itself apart.

Let me tell you about my favorite lost game in rimworld.

3 people, 1 high melee abrassive lady, one good with animals, good shooting hunter lady with a husky for hunting, and 1 dude good with construction, but too gentle to fight.

abrassive lady insults hunter lady.
hunter lady throws a punch, starts fight
abrassive lady beats hunter to death
Husky rips out throat of abrassive lady in retaliation
Dude walks by, gets killed by berserk husky.

all of this IN THE FIRST DAY.

....now what was that about colonies not tearing themselves apart?...Yeah, I pretty vehemently disagree with THAT. Its an element of the game, this cannot be denied, even if you want to say its not the MAIN point, the fact that it is A point, cannot be ignored. So yeah, THAT argument is straight up flawwed



Chairman, you are equally to thank. BELIEVE me, I have LOTS of unpopular opinions, but it comes down to, in addition to me being respectful to whoever I'm speaking to, them being able to consider and accept uncomfortable ideas. This is an idea MANY people cannot grasp, they figure if I make them uncomfortable, I am being offensive, and therefore do not respect them. Course, this is wrong : Some of the most important things are uncomfortable, yet letting someone not know because it might be uncomfortable...is that really respect? Its like an old phrase a friend told me before : Only a friend will tell you when your face is dirty. This is a VERY good example of the idea. If your face is dirty, or you stink, or whatever, a good friend will POLITELY let you know "hey, brother, your face is dirty", rather than let you walk around obliviously. Some out there would think this person ISN'T a friend, because they "insult you" or "don't care about your feelings", but 1 thing must be considered. Is the TEMPORARY discomfort of embarrassment WORSE than walking around all day with a dirty face? I think anyone with any common sense will say NO. And this is how any conversation should be treated.

So long as the conversation isn't along the lines of "fuck you faggot" or "You dumb-ass retard kill yourself", or anything else vile, I think it should be assumed well intent unless proven otherwise.

For instance, lets say someone says they think the way I dress makes me look like a square, or nerd, or whathaveyou. I dress fairly modest, and favor dress shirts when I can, as well as extra layers for aesthetics. (white shirt, dress shirt over it). Now, I can respect the idea behind what someone is getting the idea from, even consider, or understand their point, but disagree. More importantly, I think its an OBLIGATION to provide our opinions to others, and examine other opinions. For instance, I might tell them that for how I want to be portrayed, the clothing fits me. I might tell them the very people who generally don't care for how I dress, GENERALLY aren't the people I want ANYWAY. So win win. And he should be obligated to hear me out on this, and accept the facts. One of the fact being, I say I do not want xyz people around me...but even then, he can criticize, ask if its REALLY such people bothering me, question the validity of my feelings towards them, ask if there's any other reasons, make observations, theories, ect, and I should be willing to hear a few ideas out in response... All without hating him for questioning me.

However, we are getting extremely offtopic, perhaps we should move it to offtopic forums haha

[MikeLemmer]

This is a game about surviving in a hostile world against external threats, not watching your colony rip itself apart.

Yeah, I pretty vehemently disagree with THAT. Its an element of the game, this cannot be denied, even if you want to say its not the MAIN point, the fact that it is A point, cannot be ignored. So yeah, THAT argument is straight up flawwed

No it isn't. The example you cited is a straight-up outlying case; normally spirals like that occur from an external effect triggering them. Just because something can happen in a game doesn't mean it's what that game is about; you can play a perfectly law-abiding citizen in GTA's sandbox, and a D&D group can devolve into a backstabbing bunch looking for any opportunity to slit each other's throats, but neither game is about those in particular. They don't need to (or should) emphasize those aspects of the game, even though they're present.

RimWorld should not include suicide & rape because it's not meant to reach the levels of "humans are the real monsters" that stuff like zombie apocalypse stories do. Granted, you can make a nightmarish colony where everyone is harvested for organs and cannibalized, but that is once again an outlier resulting from mechanics tempting you to survive at any cost rather than an emphasis on humans being bastards making a bad situation worse.

[mumblemumble]

Are you saying that colonies spiraling from mental breaks, social fights, ect is not a thing? Yes or no.

Also, even if its an "outlying case", fact is this happened with 0 outside influence whatsoever. No raids, no bad weather, no sickness, no mechanoids.

And "what the game is about" is incredibly subjective, and its hard to say rimworld is JUST about say, defending raids. Yes, that is part of it, but is that all? We could go all day on this....

Is rimworld JUST about raids and combat? no....
Is rimworld JUST about social interactions and relationships? no...
Is rimworld JUST about feeding people, resource management, and production of supplies? no.....
Is rimworld INSTEAD about all of these things above, and more? YES!

So you saying its "not about" social interactions is flawwed, because it is to an extent. Its not the entire game, I agree! But neither is combat, neither is external threats, neither is a hostile world, neither is farming, neither is medical simulations, neither is ANYTHING in rimworld.

also by your logic of "we shouldn't have humans acting like monsters", we should remove berserks and social fights too right? Because bobby blowing out the cooks brains with a shotgun over food poisoning is pretty monsterous....

Even with your GTA example.... if you examine GTA videos on youtube from gta5, theres PLENTY of videos where the characters at no point break the law. Parties, strippers, dirt-biking, base-jumping, ect. None of these have anything to do with a criminal enterprise, so should THESE be removed? I doubt it. Infact, many people would hate you if you suggested these be removed.

Understand : Adding these things as an extremely slim possibility (emphasis on SLIM) would not TAKE AWAY from the idea of protecting a colony from outside forces. Social fights didn't, marriages didn't drinking didn't, drugs didn't, parties didn't, and a million other things have not, and will not.... Want to know why? Because rim-world isn't JUST about defending against raids, or external threats, Doesn't mean its never intended to be about the colonists interactions with each other EVER.

Most importantly, a wealth of things INTERACTING is what makes rim-world as glorious as it is. Its not JUST the raids, or the base-building, or the social interactions, its how they ALL intertwine! Rimworld would be nowhere near as cool, if the combat, the socializing, and the building was entirely removed from each other. But instead, a friendly fire incident of shooting someones foot off effect all 3! It effects the fight by incapacitating a colonist (possibly) and hurting them (also needing medical care) it effects socializing because the person who did it will now be hated (BASTARD SHOT MY FOOT OFF!) and it will effect work, as this person will now be limping around, working slower. And these 2 things would certainly be far-reaching as events if the player doesn't have time to stop them (contrary to popular belief, I picture such events being slow to escalate, and something which can be stopped if you quickly send aid)

And really, suicide if implemented how I think it would, would be EXACTLY like giveupexit mental break, except they die (or get injured), instead of reaching the end of the map. There would still be time of them isolating, gathering supplies, writing a note, working themselves towards it, and maybe they even back out without doing anything... but it would still be a cause for concern

However, I will admit rape would be MUCH harder to emulate properly, and would be significantly harder to do without turning a massive amount of people off, OR, just portraying the violator as someone "inherently evil". It can commonly go down that road, especially with learned behaviors, but it isn't always that way

[O Negative]

I'm all for civil discussion, but perhaps this one is best had somewhere else. The question of the original topic has been answered. Now we're on a completely separate set of subjects: Suicide Attempts & Rape...

I probably should've done this after the initial reply I received, but I'm gonna go ahead and lock this thread. Feel kinda bad with how much effort you've put into your arguments here, but

If you guys want to continue this civil discussion/debate with respect to RimWorld including darker gameplay elements, feel free to do so on another topic/thread