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Would you rather the game use the realism of iron ore, or the questionable steel ore?

Iron Ore
Steel Ore

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Author Topic: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?  (Read 18198 times)

Vagabond

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2016, 01:01:37 PM »

Vas, this thread has become less of a discussion on steel vs iron, and more you telling the devs and everyone else it should be iron because steel isn't acceptable. There's nothing new on adding to gameplay, just the same thing of it should be iron not steel.

Vaga. For realism, that was actually meaning to be when the sole reason for something is realism in a game not focused on it, it's generally an excuse. You can add any number of things to a game without reason but for the sake of realism, when it doesn't really add to gameplay and/or makes it worse or just consumes time for no reason. You could prevent punching trees in minecraft so you just slowly starve to death.

I don't really care, I have the flu, so I'm just going.

In most cases, when someone suggests something for the sake of realism, it will also improve game flow. The reason for this is simple, processes in real life make sense and work. More often than not, things in real life are challenging. This directly translates to the game, and in this game, the colony sim part is lacking thus far. The only real challenging aspect of the game is surviving nonsensical endless waves of mindless AI npcs bum rushing what you've built.

As for minecraft, a game that sucks the way the developers made it, is improved upon by mods that fix the developer's mistakes. Namely TerraFirmaCraft. Punching trees doesn't do anything in it. You have to make stone age tools before you can can chop a tree down.

"You could prevent punching trees in minecraft so you just slowly starve to death." Making excuses for not fixing bad game design because it'll clash with more bad game design is silly. Punching trees is dumb, so you make trees unpunchable. If trees are unpunchable, you can't progress, so you fix the way you progress. You don't just go "oh, whelp...Guess we keep trees punchable.".

Once again: Science fiction is a genre about making theoretical or imagined things as realistic as possible, and matching our definition of reality. Simulation games are games meant to simulate aspects of real or fictional -Reality-.

-Michael
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2016, 06:02:46 PM »

Thank god, more people who can say it better than I can.  I'm terrible at public relations and saying it in a way others will understand.  I just sound like a bitchy needy person I suppose but then you guys come along and say what I was trying to say so much better than I did.  I hate not being able to say stuff in a good way like Vagabond has.  :|
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skullywag

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2016, 02:58:42 AM »

I totally get what vagabond is saying but heres my counter...terrafirmcraft is slow and boring. There. Sometimes adding more realism does not make everything better for everyone.
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2016, 09:42:44 AM »

I wasn't suggesting that we make the game slower and boring.  Tynan wants the game to be more difficult.  He can't do that by adding more mindless raids.  It just isn't possible, and since the game is single core only, it would be devastating to the game to continue making it harder that way.  He's going to have to make it harder in different ways such as making the crafting system harder, where you can't just construct a bunch of turrets right out of the box.

However.  All I am suggesting is that he rename Steel to Iron and treat the Compacted Steel *coughsteelorecough* as Iron Ore and let us construct things out of Iron instead.  We mine Iron Ore to get Iron.  Make an Iron Bed, Iron Stove, Iron Table, Iron Wall, Iron Cables.

Then, a mod can make the game more difficult and more fun at the same time for those of us who WANT more, by adding Coal to the game and allowing us to smelt coal and iron together to make Steel.  And we can add Resin and Plastic to the game, having rubber trees spawn on the map so we can harvest Resin, and make rubber and plastic with it.  Then we can combine the Plastic with Steel, to make Plasteel.

We can't do this currently, because the game's base resource is Steel, so everything uses it by default and all mods rely upon it.  Where as something currently takes 1000 steel, because it is the Tier 0 resource, in the mod Steel would be a Tier 1 resource and that object should only take 600 steel to make.  For example.

Now if we rename Steel instead to Iron ourselves, some things in some mods should cost Iron and Steel, or less or more Iron than they say.  So if someone had a thing cost 3 Iron (SteelRenamed) when it should more logically cost 7 Iron, or someone has something cost 1000 Iron (SteelRenamed) when it should cost 900 Iron..  You see my point?  Things just get more odd.

If Tynan were to do the idea of adding the crafting system we speak of where you ahve to combine coal and iron to make steel, and rubber to plastic then plastic + steel to make Plasteel.  He can make many things work with Iron only.  Then add a special thing to some stuff, like Turrets for example that will require Steel to make.  Then, we can make Plasteel to make the ships, that's the only reason you NEED Plasteel after all, is space ships.  It's a game ending thing so you should have it as a Tier 2 resource.  Maybe even a Tier 3 resource. (Where you combine Plastic with Rubber with Glass to make Fiberglass, then steel and fiberglass to make Plasteel)

Point is, in order to effectively make a mod like this, the core game needs to treat Steel as Iron, so mods won't be made incompatible all the time and have issues when someone wants to make a mod that will do this.

Most importantly it makes no logical sense of any kind because Steel, even Compacted Steel, will NOT survive thousands of years.  It will, WILL, rust and decay into nothing.  Unless it is Stainless steel, and then it will stand the test of time, I think, but it will not be easy to make beds with and reshape into other things as the game allows you to do right now.

Point is: Steel is illogical, makes the game easy, makes changing it with a mod hard.
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Vagabond

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2016, 11:45:29 PM »

I totally get what vagabond is saying but heres my counter...terrafirmcraft is slow and boring. There. Sometimes adding more realism does not make everything better for everyone.

Skullywag,

I accept your counter as opinion. I can certainly see where some might find it difficult to cope with pace. I, however, enjoy the pace. Every time I move forward a step after struggling to simply find food and water, I am happy. I enjoy colony builders, survival games, and sims because (when they are good) I can do things that I can't experience in real life.

If I had the money, legal assistance, time, and resources I'd love to do these things in real life. It's not possible though. I don't know if people would even let me use them as pawns in a real life colony. Being a husband and father of two, it isn't feasible for me to go out into the woods and try and survive. It's to risky, the start-up is to expensive, and I simply don't have the luxury of time to waste - I have responsibilities of taking care of my home and my kids.

With that, as I've mentioned, I enjoy realism. The closer to real life it is, the more enjoyable it is - more often then not, it's a tougher game for it. Since it is a game, I can pause when my daughter (who is potty training) needs to go to the bathroom. I can pause when my son needs to read me his spelling list, or when he needs help with a math problem.

I've made tons of suggestions that add to the depth and progression of the game because like Vas, I don't see the ever increasing "raid" size a feasible method of controlling difficulty. The genre of the game offers many avenues to offer different means of difficulty through colonist interactions, crafting processes, and technology progression.

While steel being steel seem inconsequential, it really isn't. Not based on a human's perception of what reality is - and in the universe of Rimworld, the fact we are playing human's means that their perception of reality should be in line with our's. Now, if we were playing a fictional alien race who had a single word for iron and all it's alloys, that would make more sense. I don't see an alien race capable of space travel being so primitive in their identification of elements, but... Who knows?

At any rate, this will be the last I post on this. We should have Iron ore. Iron ore should be mixed with carbon to make steel. Steel sheets should be coated with glass fibers and coated in plastic to create plasteel. Uranium and lead need to be more controlled. Copper needs to be a thing as well. Copper and tin to make bronze. Silver and gold - their use should be controlled better too. Copper, siler, and gold would be awesome as conductive material. Plastic types would be cool too - PP, PE, PVC. All very common plastics used for everything in your house or office building.

Cheers,
Michael
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erdrik

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2016, 06:00:55 AM »

...
While steel being steel seem inconsequential, it really isn't. Not based on a human's perception of what reality is - and in the universe of Rimworld, the fact we are playing human's means that their perception of reality should be in line with our's. Now, if we were playing a fictional alien race who had a single word for iron and all it's alloys, that would make more sense. I don't see an alien race capable of space travel being so primitive in their identification of elements, but... Who knows?
...

Let me just start this with a bit of a disclaimer: Im only commenting on this bit because it kind of strikes a cord with me as someone who has been learning and trying his hand at world building off and on as a hobby for about 22 years.
(started the hobby my freshman year in highschool '94)
I am by no means an expert or professional but I have put quite a bit of thought into it over the years.

Starting with the emphases Ive add to the above quote, the Universe of Rimworld is not our Universe.
Physics doesn't necessarily work the same way in Rimworld as the real world, so their perception of reality definitely does not have to line up with ours.
This idea is one of many core "Pillars" that make creating fiction possible in the first place.

The only perceptions of reality that a creator has to adhere to is
1. Keep it relatable enough to the consumer
2. Keep the fiction's perception of reality consistent(ie: don't break established rules without a valid "In Universe" reason for it)

And #1 is very subjective. Some people only need just one thing to latch onto to make it relatable.
For the vast majority of the time, matching reality in detail is not necessary. It's very cool to do, but is not a requirement of quality fiction.

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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2016, 04:42:31 PM »

Sometimes adding more realism does not make everything better for everyone.
We should have Iron ore. Iron ore should be mixed with carbon to make steel. Steel sheets should be coated with glass fibers and coated in plastic to create plasteel. Uranium and lead need to be more controlled. Copper needs to be a thing as well. Copper and tin to make bronze. Silver and gold - their use should be controlled better too. Copper, siler, and gold would be awesome as conductive material. Plastic types would be cool too - PP, PE, PVC. All very common plastics used for everything in your house or office building.
Vaga, I can add silver, copper, and other metals and minerals if you want.  It will take me some time though, and I might try and add you on steam to discuss it more with you.

You took it a little far though. xP  The only goal here is to get Tynan to rename Steel to Iron, so that he iron ore in the mountains can be a tier 1 resource and you dont have to do hacky dumb things to rename it and make it work in mods and compatibility and also just to make it make sense because in real life steel would not survive this long, it would be a pile of dust.  That's the only objective here.  I can make mods to do all the other stuff once it is renamed.  I may try and make a mod for it anyway and use the hacky dumb way and if people complain, I'll tell them to complain to the modders who haven't made their mod compatible with mine.  :P

I do have to agree somewhat with Skullywag, to the point where realism to the extent you have said would make the game less fun for some.  However, realism where you simply rename a metal to another metal, would not hurt the game play in any way shape or form, and it would make a lot more sense.  Hurting literally no one at all.  Tynan can explain that there used to be a civilization here before using stone as structures, because stone makes sense, and is already a part of the game with ruined structures.  He doesn't need compacted steel that defies the laws of physics to say that a civilization used to live there.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 01:02:30 AM by Vas »
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