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Would you rather the game use the realism of iron ore, or the questionable steel ore?

Iron Ore
Steel Ore

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Author Topic: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?  (Read 18191 times)

erdrik

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2016, 03:09:43 PM »

I wouldn't have a problem with adding Iron ore, but also respect the decision of the developer.
Especially since the decision was probably a core decision made very early in development.
(in light of when wood planks were removed)

It sounds to me like you want the game to be something it was never intended to be.
And while I can appreciate the difficulty in finding games that can balance fun without sacrificing realism,
I don't think you should be getting mad or throwing around your frustrations at a developer that has at the end of the day made a good game.

If you want iron ore that badly, there are mod options.
And as someone how has modded the game myself, I can say those options are extensive and accessible.
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Boston

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2016, 02:02:44 AM »

Its not the iron thats the issue its simply that iron ore would need processing and that was deemed too costly the games flow.

Weird, the mod "Superior Crafting" had a "mine ore > smelt ingots > make items" mechanic and flow, and it didn't impair my enjoyment of the game at all. It also had a "fell trees < collect lumber < saw boards" thing that was actually rather fun. The finished boards sold for good money, and you could make log cabins from the rough logs.

If anything, it made the game "better". Now, instead of just cranking turrets and killboxes out of my colonists ass, I actually had to plan ahead. Interact with the game-world AND the NPCS. Write a "story".
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skullywag

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2016, 02:36:24 AM »

But thats you. Not everyone. As stated above this decision was made early on, we have had this discussion many times and its always the same outcome, nothing changes because it goes against a decision that was made early in development. It used to be just simply "metal" so its not like this was the first iteration, this was done deliberately. If you guys want it that bad ill throw up a mod that does it, would take 10 mins for a simple change.
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2016, 07:57:13 AM »

I support the change to iron. It seems less of a leap that the magic Omni tool refines mined minerals automatically than that steel can survive that long.

Though I do react to your SE remark. I admit they made concessions for gameplay (Jumpdrives, miniscule planets, sound effects, artificial gravity (that needs to die) and no aero-braking), but overall it is good for what it is (though you need the enterprise to run it well).
Yea, the same omni tool we use now could automatically refine Iron Ore, much more realistically than it can refine powdered rusty piles of steel into usable metal.

SE, they sacrificed massive amounts of the game for gameplay sake.  I offered ways to do it realistically while still being fun.  They chose the lazy shit way.  They don't give a shit about realism and science and any of that, their mission statement is totally shit.

I wouldn't have a problem with adding Iron ore, but also respect the decision of the developer.
Especially since the decision was probably a core decision made very early in development.
(in light of when wood planks were removed)

It sounds to me like you want the game to be something it was never intended to be.
And while I can appreciate the difficulty in finding games that can balance fun without sacrificing realism,
I don't think you should be getting mad or throwing around your frustrations at a developer that has at the end of the day made a good game.

If you want iron ore that badly, there are mod options.
And as someone how has modded the game myself, I can say those options are extensive and accessible.

It was named Metal, previously.  It's also not a core game hing.  I can change it easily if I want.  The issue is mods are all based on steel which means it can't be changed by mods without making a mod incompatible with everything out there.  I do think the game is good, I'm just frustrated with developers sacrificing realism for "gameplay".  Like Space Engineers who sacrificed their entire mission statement to turn their game into a big joke, where all you do is make a ship and crash it into another, that's the whole object of that game at this point.  Nothing scientific about it whatsoever.

Now, instead of just cranking turrets and killboxes out of my colonists ass, I actually had to plan ahead. Interact with the game-world AND the NPCS. Write a "story".
Exactly.  Now all I gotta do is construct a bunch of turrets right off the bat and I'm all set.  The game dev keeps nerfing turrets because of this and making the game "harder" and "harder" and in all the wrong ways, because he doesn't want to add this flow to the game that actually makes you wait till you craft steel to get turrets and such.  Game core turrets are total trash and stupid useless piles of scrap now because of how much he nerfed them.  It's illogically dumb.  Might as well use a BB gun, it'll do more damage and be more accurate.  I use a turret mod to have turrets at what they SHOULD have been.  Unfortunately, it's still easy to build turrets because there's no real stage in development that requires me to get steel first.

Chances are after he reads this bit about pill box users, he'll instead of adding this flow you spoke of, make turrets require plasteel.

But thats you. Not everyone. As stated above this decision was made early on, we have had this discussion many times and its always the same outcome, nothing changes because it goes against a decision that was made early in development. It used to be just simply "metal" so its not like this was the first iteration, this was done deliberately. If you guys want it that bad ill throw up a mod that does it, would take 10 mins for a simple change.
It was named "metal" early on because it was more of a place holder till the game was more fleshed out.  Now you can't change it with a mod, because it will literally be incompatible with ALL MODS THAT EXIST and no one will ever use it.
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skullywag

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2016, 08:05:15 AM »

unless you make the end product steel.....
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2016, 08:09:47 AM »

Your reply is too short for me to understand what you mean Skully.
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skullywag

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2016, 08:10:57 AM »

if you are going to make iron ore a thing, then you also make charcoal or coal a thing then you combine the two to make steel somehow, now you have iron ore and steel with no issues bar an extra production chain.
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2016, 08:29:00 AM »

Coal is already a thing for me :P  But anyway.

Steel doesn't need to be the final tier either.  Plasteel is still a light weight steel type object that you can use in the construction of space ships.  You could add rubber trees to the game to get resin from to make plastics with and then make Plasteel with for space ships.  That adds a Tier 3 product to the game for getting ships that let you escape.  Rather than you just making some random ship with random unrealistic ore you find in the ground out of rusty old Steel and partially decomposed thousands of years old plastic steel.

Personally I think the game gets too hard too fast.  The first raid is 1 person, while the second raid is like 5-10 people, the 3rd is "oh my god I'm glad Steel is here so I can have my pillboxes already".  The game is designed as tower defense at this stage.  Designed to either force you to lose the game or tower defense or bunker up inside a mountain and use exploits to survive where sappers murder themselves by grenading their own team.
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lude

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2016, 08:51:31 AM »

If you only change the label it will stay compatible with all kinds of mods, I'm currently testing Hardcore SK and there Plasteel is just Nickel and Steel is just Iron Ore and was removed by hand from all kinds of recipes, which just leads to 'cheap' recipes when you add other mods.

So far I've changed stuff for RTFTJ, Neurotrainer, Powerless, Adaption Refusal and a few other minor to work better with it, but mainly added parts, electronics and such stuff to the recipes.

But before they all kinda just cost iron ore while everything else needs it to be refined.

Anyway, I'm also pro Iron Ore, but also leaving in Steel and Plasteel, perhaps make it visible that it was a spaceship or some such, have an interior, up the drop per block, add some nifty danger, make those relics a bit younger, also steel or iron in anaerobic conditions tends to last some time tho even then microbes and other stuff would slowly turn it into iron again under compaction and stuff.


also

y no Z level :(
okay okay because every tile basically lives

I personally just hope, that no matter what happens, this game continues to be my surrogate for DF2
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2016, 10:14:29 AM »

The problem with simply changing the ID is it one, gets confusing, and two, leads to odd recipes that sometimes make no sense.

If Steel remains in the game, it should be renamed to Stainless Steel, which is stronger and lasts much longer, this would work for some of those ex-buildings from the previous civilizations.  It most definitely shouldn't spawn as if an ore too as it does right now.  Plasteel should be the same way, only more like a crashed ship where it's kind of scattered around this random area, and should be more recent rather than thousands of years old because again, those would decay over time.

On top of that, both should instead of being in an ore like rock, be renamed to "ruined steel structure" "ruined plasteel hull" or some such like that so that you must deconstruct/mine it out to get it.  It would just make more sense than having an ore pocket of "compacted steel".


Z-Levels would be interesting by the way, it was done in Gnomoria and was functional to some extent.  :P  It's just difficult.  I don't mind the game staying on one level, but I would like things to be placed on different levels in a sort of programming aspect.  So I won't see conduits or air ducts anymore, while I can also modify the ceiling to be something different too.  But that's for another topic.
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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2016, 01:22:35 PM »

use exploits to survive where sappers murder themselves by grenading their own team.

What do you mean use exploits, kill boxes? Because kill boxes aren't exploits. They're defended entrances to a base.

Also, an answer to the steel is that it isn't OUR steel. It could be another type of material that exists in this 3,000 years in the future. Realism in any game that isn't centered on it is generally just an excuse.
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2016, 01:34:17 PM »

I had sappers move in to attack my base once, they mined a long straight tunnel to the wall of my base then grenaded each other at that spot and killed themselves and fled.  Doing 2 seconds repair time worth of actual damage.  :P

As for steel that isn't steel, why call it steel?  Our steel wouldn't last that long for sure.  I like games to have some sort of scientific accuracy, it doesn't have to be totally accurate, but making everything up as you go along just gets dumb.
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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2016, 01:54:23 PM »

Steel would be more recognizable then a random name.
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Vas

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2016, 01:59:43 PM »

It's from a civilization that existed prior to us, ruins of a civilization that was around either before we exited earth, or even prior to us becoming a civilization.

I just think many people here agree Steel is scientifically a bad name for it especially the way the game draws it out in ore piles and stuff.
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erdrik

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Re: Do you think Steel ore should be Iron ore instead?
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2016, 02:11:11 PM »

The issue is mods are all based on steel which means it can't be changed by mods without making a mod incompatible with everything out there.
Your coming at the issue from the wrong direction.
Don't change steel. Because, yea, doing so would make your mod incompatible.
But you can always add iron ore as a separate item from the existing steel that the player smelts into iron and can further process into steel. You can even add the iron item to the Metallic stuff category and give it differing rates of deterioration/ health/ ect than steel. Its not that you can't do it, its that you have to use steel as the baseline.

Then all you have to do is change the world gen options to produce less(or even none) "compacted" steel and more iron ore. Some mods will still be incompatible, but it will mostly narrow it down to only other world gen mods.

SE, they sacrificed massive amounts of the game for gameplay sake.  I offered ways to do it realistically while still being fun.  They chose the lazy shit way.  They don't give a shit about realism and science and any of that, their mission statement is totally shit.
You should probably stop with the disparaging stuff. You aren't going to get any Dev to listen to you if you disparage their work, even indirectly. Anger and frustration is no excuse. You can re-read and change your post before hitting that 'post' button. Devs don't have to listen to you. They are in the position of experience to get things done. They know what they can do. What their teams can do. But they don't know anything about you, and claims of experience from their forums members don't mean much unless it is backed with evidence through reliable channels. Calling them and their work "lazy" and "shit" because they didn't listen to you, only gives more reason to not listen to you.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 02:13:22 PM by erdrik »
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