Proposal to fix the story loophole

[Adeelos]

Well, that's the point. Most would not, meaning we have a good explanation.

At this point, we're arguing semantics. You can't possibly say definitively most would not. Too many variables when it comes to people and how they behave. Meaning we don't have a good explanation.

We have: "Three people crash landed on an unknown world. Forced to find any means to survive, they establish a colony. They are beset by a number of further misfortunes; raiders, psychotic wildlife, and constant wildfires to name a few. Eventually, they are able to build a means of communication with passing starships, some of which (slave traders) clearly have the ability to pick up and/or drop off people from the surface without the need for the survivors to build a means of getting themselves to space. For some reason, every single colonist has decided they would rather deal with wave after wave of increasingly more dangerous raiders, crop failures, explosive rats, and all sorts of other disastrous events than bargain their way off the planet back to civilized space with ANY of these passing starships by any means other than selling themselves off as slaves. Or, for that matter, even leave a transmission or S.O.S. to go with the traders back to settled space letting ANYONE know there are survivors there."

[Galileus]

You can't possibly say definitively most would not. Too many variables when it comes to people and how they behave. Meaning we don't have a good explanation.

This is silly. You can take EVERY masterpiece made EVER and tear it apart like that. Star Trek? We can't build warp engines yet, so their explanations were bollocks. Star Wars? Force is not explained at all! Bollocks! Reasons for Garrus to be on Shepard's team? We don't know his story all that well, so we can't say if their explanation is good or not. Bollocks. Would survivors team up in The Walking Dead? We have no reports from their psychiatrists, so we don't know. Here's a curve-ball - the psychiatrists would be made-up as well.

And here's the part I find utterly illogical - you say there are too many variables to predict how people would behave. The thing is - these variables are made up. By the guy telling the story. If you deny that, how would anyone ever create a story about people? Every explanation in a fiction will make up these variables. Are you telling us ever work of fiction is bollocks, because it's authors had no real idea how people would behave if that was real life?

You're not helping here. There is ALWAYS "what if" that can break the loop. We're talking about fiction here, we're making assumptions and rounding things up. We provided a story and gave good argumentation for it - exactly WHY traders wouldn't pick some random folks up for a ride. We took our time to think it over. All you do is say "nope, not good enough because it would be POSSIBLE someone would act differently". No argumentation, no alternatives... man, you want to help, at least provide some constructive feedback instead of denying everything.

[mumblemumble]

Again, you are assuming a HUGE amount of optimism. Not only that but this topic has been brought up before (and is normally locked). You don't know the expenses / risks involved with picking up hitch hikers, and you assume company policy of all of these trade ships would allow it.

Try working as a delivery guy, and pick up random guys who need a ride, guarantee your boss gets wind of it, he most likely you will get your butt fired so fast. Besides, this seems to be a "backwoods" sort of area in space, a place for only trade routes and shady characters, mostly so that is another reason.

Just remember, they have no reason to help you, and thinking otherwise is pure optimism at best.

I can think up many more plot-holes in hundreds of games which have more convincing logic behind it, but I don't obsess over them, I just dismiss them.

Plus, in-case you didn't notice, the world generally becomes LESS caring the MORE people there are. If its 1 guy who needs help in the world, and its all you see, you are more likely to help than working someplace where theres dozens of beggars lining the sidewalk. Now imagine your are in space, you could have entire PLANETS of beggars you are passing by, what the heck would make you pick out just 1 group to help?  They likely all blend in, and they likely would of heard all the sob stories before, so its very unlikely YOUR story would be any different. Especially working for a company, you aren't going to risk your job, and delaying a schedule for something risky like that.

This is a dark gritty game, in terms of what happens, people can go insane from work and go on shooting sprees for gods sake, and people burn their dead to manage the sheer amount of bodies. So why is a bunch of traders turning a blind eye to distress (which happens ALL THE TIME in real life) so unbelievable to you? Honestly I find raiders endlessly being blown away by turrets / snipers day after day less believable, but I don't call it an issue with the plot.

[Sundaysmile]

Have the traders stationed on the world itself.

This should allow a deeper interest in factions as well as generating strategic boons and conflict.

The Communications hub is still valid as you're just communicating on a shorter bandwidth.

Thus trading still exists and we get more in depth trading as a result.


Seems about the jist of it all, yeah?

[mumblemumble]

Not really, having traders on world ruins the "alone and stranded" vibe. Traders in orbit makes more sense, you can trade, but you are still VERY much alone. There's more problems brought up by on-world trading than are fixed.

[todofwar]

Potential game mechanic: option to ask for a ride, they may only have supplies for a few passengers if they say yes at all. Saying yes to only a few means you stay behind to run the colony with diminished staff, knowing that at least some made it home. If they have room for everyone, there is a chance all the colonists are taken as slaves, and you lose the game. There is also a chance it results in an early victory, but the chances of this happening would scale with game length so that building your own ship is easily more viable.

[Sundaysmile]

Not really, having traders on world ruins the "alone and stranded" vibe. Traders in orbit makes more sense, you can trade, but you are still VERY much alone. There's more problems brought up by on-world trading than are fixed.

And waves upon waves of raiders aren't breaking that vibe for you either?

[mumblemumble]

They do slightly make me wonder why they would endlessly walk into death, BUT, these are low life's which don't follow societies rules, and seek to make your life hell. Not only that, but if you pay attention they use escape pods to land, meaning they are normally from space but land to mess up your day. They don't LIVE on the planet, and when they flea, I assume they run away to be picked back up by the rest of their raiding crew.

Think of it as a really ghetto neighborhood, and the only guy willing to give you a ride is someone who's going to slit your throat and steal your wallet, same concept, raiders are there to cause trouble, everyone else wants to avoid it if they can.

[richard]

The constant back and forth arguing about whether space-faring traders would rescue the colonists (or the raiders) is the very reason why I've been looking for a narrative way out.

Making the traders not be space-faring seems the simplest solution to me, and fits the intended gameplay mechanics.

[Galileus]

Erm... hate to be the downer, but you find it hard to believe that survivors wouldn't just hitch a ride on a spaceship but accept without doubt they would rather stay in cave with stick and stones when there's a megacity trade hub nearby that deals in modern technology?

If anything, it takes the hole and hypercharges it...

[richard]

Erm... hate to be the downer, but you find it hard to believe that survivors wouldn't just hitch a ride on a spaceship but accept without doubt they would rather stay in cave with stick and stones when there's a megacity trade hub nearby that deals in modern technology?

Who said anything about a megacity trade hub nearby? The traders can simply be moving between settlements on the planet. And yes I'm aware this introduces the problem of why the survivors don't go to one of those settlements, but I think we can assume they're hostile to that idea given the raider situation.

[omzh]

why don't we make the comm station a mid stage research topic, so by the time the player gets it the colonists are established and don't want to leave?

[Galileus]

Who said anything about a megacity trade hub nearby? The traders can simply be moving between settlements on the planet. And yes I'm aware this introduces the problem of why the survivors don't go to one of those settlements, but I think we can assume they're hostile to that idea given the raider situation.

Traders are coming in high numbers and need to carry all the good stuffs - hi tech, weapons, slaves, uranium batteries, artillery pieces... it screams huge trade city to me.

Also, how would colonists be worried about raiders? They are armed and they are attacked because they are in a colony - moving to even a settlement (even more to a city) would increase their chances tenfold. The raiders are space-based as well - and if they were not, traders on foot would need real solid escorts and wouldn't have as much negativity for few more as space-faring ones would.

You're talking about them being hostile to idea of going to the city that is just there on horizon, while you expect them to suffer years of space travel with unknown men and no assurance where they'll end? It seems seriously far-fetched to me.

[Nasikabatrachus]

Threshold=subjective.
Bigger problem: how does stuff
get from us to them?

If you've got orbit,
what don't you have, man?

[Galileus]

Automated cargo hauling drones or manned landing pods that you would expect trading vessels to have - unless you expect them to land on each and every planet wasting tons of fuel and having to be designed and build with atmospheric re-entry and escape in mind Don't fix what ain't broken!

And INB4 - they don't hijack these pods, because A) shot down from orbit when sensors pick up too many life-signs aboard B) if anyone survives no traders at all from that point

Would be actually a interesting idea if some oafs and vatgrowns decided to do so and you'd have to either convince them otherwise (social skill check) or arrest them.