[1.0/1.1/1.2] Expanded Prosthetics and Organ Engineering 2.42 (27.08.2020)

[Adamiks]

Ykara there are some problems with arms. Arms just don't "drop" when i'm installing for example a bionic arm (but when i remove arm, they do). And they shouldn't be installed on "armsDef" but on "shoulderDef".

[Ykara]

Ykara there are some problems with arms. Arms just don't "drop" when i'm installing for example a bionic arm (but when i remove arm, they do). And they shouldn't be installed on "armsDef" but on "shoulderDef".

Oh, thanks for reporting! It will be fixed in the next version!

[SeamusCameron]

In my opinion, the beginning is pretty well balanced. The cost-to-efficiency ratio is pretty well made, and it doesn't feel OP, or underpowered. However, it's when you get to bionics and up that there is a slight OP-ness.

I was easily able to get a few thousand units of plasteel from mining, cutting open mechanoids, or simply selling all the clothing and weapons I got from raids and buying plasteel with it.

Once you research bionics and higher, it actually gets easier to have your units be enhanced then to get them to normal. I mean, we're crash-landed on a near-deserted planet, and getting my guy a advanced bionic leg is easier then getting him a normal leg? I mean, once I get the research and advance a decent way in, I might as well just give that colonist a advanced bionic arm rather then cure the infection in his little finger.

Bionics also trumps prostheses by a lot. They are not very far apart in both cost and research, but they are pretty distinctive in efficiency. If I just save a bit more steel and plasteel, instead of making this prosthetic foot, I can get a bionic one.

I think maybe making bionics harder to get, maybe needing some advanced parts you need to salvage from mechanoid or buy from traders(I don't think it should have a more complex production chain though. Needing x to craft y to combine with x and z to make w to me, just adds more tedium then anything else), or needing some more resources and a higher knowledge of things, then adding a middle ground-type prostheses that have 100% efficiency, like organic limbs and organs, just without having to get a prisoner to chop up.

TL;DR
The beginning is well balanced, but once you get to mid-game-ish, gets OP pretty quick. Possibly add a 'middle ground' prostheses between 'weakened' and 'advanced'

     I just finished a playthrough today and I had a thought as to how to gate the production value. I really like your idea of having there be a gate item as a rare drop or an item from a trader, but for bionics/advanced bionics in particular... would it be possible to create it as an authored item as well?
     F.E. Statues at the sculptors table. Pawns spend 1800 or so "work" on a small marble statue, wouldn't a bionic or advanced bionic piece of tech be just as much a "work of art"?
     Is that possible from a modding perspective/something that people might want?

[Adamiks]

In my opinion, the beginning is pretty well balanced. The cost-to-efficiency ratio is pretty well made, and it doesn't feel OP, or underpowered. However, it's when you get to bionics and up that there is a slight OP-ness.

I was easily able to get a few thousand units of plasteel from mining, cutting open mechanoids, or simply selling all the clothing and weapons I got from raids and buying plasteel with it.

Once you research bionics and higher, it actually gets easier to have your units be enhanced then to get them to normal. I mean, we're crash-landed on a near-deserted planet, and getting my guy a advanced bionic leg is easier then getting him a normal leg? I mean, once I get the research and advance a decent way in, I might as well just give that colonist a advanced bionic arm rather then cure the infection in his little finger.

Bionics also trumps prostheses by a lot. They are not very far apart in both cost and research, but they are pretty distinctive in efficiency. If I just save a bit more steel and plasteel, instead of making this prosthetic foot, I can get a bionic one.

I think maybe making bionics harder to get, maybe needing some advanced parts you need to salvage from mechanoid or buy from traders(I don't think it should have a more complex production chain though. Needing x to craft y to combine with x and z to make w to me, just adds more tedium then anything else), or needing some more resources and a higher knowledge of things, then adding a middle ground-type prostheses that have 100% efficiency, like organic limbs and organs, just without having to get a prisoner to chop up.

TL;DR
The beginning is well balanced, but once you get to mid-game-ish, gets OP pretty quick. Possibly add a 'middle ground' prostheses between 'weakened' and 'advanced'

     I just finished a playthrough today and I had a thought as to how to gate the production value. I really like your idea of having there be a gate item as a rare drop or an item from a trader, but for bionics/advanced bionics in particular... would it be possible to create it as an authored item as well?
     F.E. Statues at the sculptors table. Pawns spend 1800 or so "work" on a small marble statue, wouldn't a bionic or advanced bionic piece of tech be just as much a "work of art"?
     Is that possible from a modding perspective/something that people might want?

I think that the best solution for this is creating a artificial bones and electronics chips like in SC. Then bionics would need even more crafting and resources. Maybe also bionics should require a prosthetics parts to have a "base"?

[LittleGreenStone]

I *might* have found a minor mistake, that is, if it wasn't already corrected:

That body-part is supposed to be an advanced power claw, not arm.



Also, any reason why I had about 10 wooden legs coming down in drop-pods? I lol'd but I'm not sure it was intended, or was it?

[Ykara]

I think I'll make crafting bionic prostheses a bit more time consuming, using unfinished items (I figured out how this works, I've already made Craftable Guns more balanced this way). And maybe I'll nerf natural limbs cause it seems pretty unrealistic just to install a harvested arm on another person without any debuffs. I'm not sure about adding more production chains, I think not everybody would like it.
@LittleGreenStone: Haha, I've had wooden foots falling from the sky once, it's pretty funny I guess ^^ But since I don't know what causes that I can't remove it, but I think it's not a big problem. Maybe a prostheses trader crashed, everything is possible ^^
And about the advanced power claw: There is no such an item in EPOE, at least I can't remember creating it o.O Are you sure you haven't added it yourself?

[Adamiks]

I think I'll make crafting bionic prostheses a bit more time consuming, using unfinished items (I figured out how this works, I've already made Craftable Guns more balanced this way). And maybe I'll nerf natural limbs cause it seems pretty unrealistic just to install a harvested arm on another person without any debuffs. I'm not sure about adding more production chains, I think not everybody would like it.
@LittleGreenStone: Haha, I've had wooden foots falling from the sky once, it's pretty funny I guess ^^ But since I don't know what causes that I can't remove it, but I think it's not a big problem. Maybe a prostheses trader crashed, everything is possible ^^
And about the advanced power claw: There is no such an item in EPOE, at least I can't remember creating it o.O Are you sure you haven't added it yourself?

How unfinished items even works? o.O Do the unfinished items change anything? Items with this needs more work time or/and using this make creating a good quality items harder? And about this arms.... You know. I would like to have even arm from another human than nothing. And about this debuffs... Do the colonists without arms have some thoughts? In that way adding debuffs to this kind of recipes isn't compatible with Rimworld logic.

EDIT
Oh, and true story about this power claw. I've even added this body part myself so there is no body part like this in EPOE.

[Nimrod]

I think I'll make crafting bionic prostheses a bit more time consuming, using unfinished items (I figured out how this works, I've already made Craftable Guns more balanced this way). And maybe I'll nerf natural limbs cause it seems pretty unrealistic just to install a harvested arm on another person without any debuffs. I'm not sure about adding more production chains, I think not everybody would like it.
@LittleGreenStone: Haha, I've had wooden foots falling from the sky once, it's pretty funny I guess ^^ But since I don't know what causes that I can't remove it, but I think it's not a big problem. Maybe a prostheses trader crashed, everything is possible ^^
And about the advanced power claw: There is no such an item in EPOE, at least I can't remember creating it o.O Are you sure you haven't added it yourself?

Maybe have a look at Stats_Pawns_WorkMedical.xml in Core/ - you could come up with your own skill/difficulty set for installing bionics/advanced bionics - with a higher chance of failure as an example
Giving bionics/advanced bionics recipies an unfinished item and raising the work amount is also a nice idea - but wouldn't really change that much in my opinion
If you want to make life more difficult - change the recipies (building and maybe even installing) to need medicine AND crafting

cheers

[LittleGreenStone]

I think I'll make crafting bionic prostheses a bit more time consuming, using unfinished items (I figured out how this works, I've already made Craftable Guns more balanced this way). And maybe I'll nerf natural limbs cause it seems pretty unrealistic just to install a harvested arm on another person without any debuffs. I'm not sure about adding more production chains, I think not everybody would like it.
@LittleGreenStone: Haha, I've had wooden foots falling from the sky once, it's pretty funny I guess ^^ But since I don't know what causes that I can't remove it, but I think it's not a big problem. Maybe a prostheses trader crashed, everything is possible ^^
And about the advanced power claw: There is no such an item in EPOE, at least I can't remember creating it o.O Are you sure you haven't added it yourself?

EDIT
Oh, and true story about this power claw. I've even added this body part myself so there is no body part like this in EPOE.

Aaaalright, my mistake, sorry about that. ^^

These body-parts falling down isn't bad, I just wasn't sure it's intentional. This time only wooden legs, next time maybe advanced bionics will fall, and that would be rather...well, I won't lie, it'd be pretty damn awesome but anyway...

About the natural limbs; I honestly don't know. I simply skipped them so far, except for that one or two tech-phobe colonists of mine. I've never had problems with creating bionics, so "nerfing" natural arms wouldn't really affect me, for one. Still, it's already one's debate, either to give natural limbs or bionics to such colonists (-mood + effectiveness, or neither), so this nerf (what will it be anyway, reduced effectiveness? Bad thoughts?) would, in my opinion, make it an easy decision to make.

Maybe you could use the idea of growing or just changing limbs, to be "ideal"
(without the presence of a colonist, in a vat) and organs to make it more way more time-consuming,
maybe you could make it hard to remove limbs without damaging it, rendering them useless,
or perhaps implement a "rejection" system where colonists' rejected limbs could just fall off. ^^
I'm not sure it'd be an easy matter, the last one, but it sure would be amusing!

[Dr. Z]

I think I'll make crafting bionic prostheses a bit more time consuming, using unfinished items (I figured out how this works, I've already made Craftable Guns more balanced this way). And maybe I'll nerf natural limbs cause it seems pretty unrealistic just to install a harvested arm on another person without any debuffs. I'm not sure about adding more production chains, I think not everybody would like it.
@LittleGreenStone: Haha, I've had wooden foots falling from the sky once, it's pretty funny I guess ^^ But since I don't know what causes that I can't remove it, but I think it's not a big problem. Maybe a prostheses trader crashed, everything is possible ^^
And about the advanced power claw: There is no such an item in EPOE, at least I can't remember creating it o.O Are you sure you haven't added it yourself?

The last time I've played (still Alpha 9), you could just implant natural organs from the start. Why don't make it a research project which unlocks after simple prosteses parallel to bionics. No higher tier research depends on this but it needs more time to finish, like 2,500 to 3,000 points. Because you can just harvest limbs and add them for 100% efficency I think it should be really expensive.
Also you seem to have delted the german traslation for the power claw. I even added a nice reference to it

[Ykara]

These body-parts falling down isn't bad, I just wasn't sure it's intentional. This time only wooden legs, next time maybe advanced bionics will fall, and that would be rather...well, I won't lie, it'd be pretty damn awesome but anyway...

About the natural limbs; I honestly don't know. I simply skipped them so far, except for that one or two tech-phobe colonists of mine. I've never had problems with creating bionics, so "nerfing" natural arms wouldn't really affect me, for one. Still, it's already one's debate, either to give natural limbs or bionics to such colonists (-mood + effectiveness, or neither), so this nerf (what will it be anyway, reduced effectiveness? Bad thoughts?) would, in my opinion, make it an easy decision to make.

Maybe you could use the idea of growing or just changing limbs, to be "ideal"
(without the presence of a colonist, in a vat) and organs to make it more way more time-consuming,
maybe you could make it hard to remove limbs without damaging it, rendering them useless,
or perhaps implement a "rejection" system where colonists' rejected limbs could just fall off. ^^
I'm not sure it'd be an easy matter, the last one, but it sure would be amusing!

I already wanted to do a rejection system, but I didn't get it to work, because there is currently no easy way that one operation gives two hediffs. But I really hope Tynan adds the option to do this eventually.
And about the vat: I could add an organ vat, but not to grow organs, but to make natural organs usable. Maybe I'll do that.

How unfinished items even works? o.O Do the unfinished items change anything? Items with this needs more work time or/and using this make creating a good quality items harder? And about this arms.... You know. I would like to have even arm from another human than nothing. And about this debuffs... Do the colonists without arms have some thoughts? In that way adding debuffs to this kind of recipes isn't compatible with Rimworld logic.

Unfinished items just allow you to stop working on a recipe and continuing later. It's that easy. But I have to try it, I'm pretty sure there is something that doesn't work, just to annoy me ^^

The last time I've played (still Alpha 9), you could just implant natural organs from the start. Why don't make it a research project which unlocks after simple prosteses parallel to bionics. No higher tier research depends on this but it needs more time to finish, like 2,500 to 3,000 points. Because you can just harvest limbs and add them for 100% efficency I think it should be really expensive.
Also you seem to have delted the german traslation for the power claw. I even added a nice reference to it

Researching to install natural organs seems like a good idea, too. But it isn't that easy as it sounds, I'll have to try it with C# (and I'm really bad at it ^^).
And about the power claw: I had to remove it because it was already translated since it's a vanilla item. But nice reference ^^

[Dr. Z]

Power claw is a vanilla item 
Never noticed that.

[Nimrod]

Power claw is a vanilla item 
Never noticed that.

I noticed that my mail server denies mails from this forum, since the domain it sends from does not resolve (that is a DNS Problem - something the webmaster should take care of).
That said, I never told anyone about it and forgot until now

[AllenWL]

I was just thinking, but won't it be sorta cool if there where something like anesthetic ribs or something that increased your colonist's pain resistance/made pain not pain your colonist as much/make colonists not feel pain at cost of loss in manipulation and such?

One of my colonists is really covered in scars and injuries, and due to the accumulated pain, he is pretty much the first to fall to pain despite being one of the best fighters. It would be cool if I could make him not feel pain/not feel as much pain. Of course, this would mean that your colonists is more likely to fight till he loses something vital.... but on the other hand, only death or loss of legs would stop them. Could be quite interesting to have, really.

[LustrousWolf]

I can't install a body parts from this mod (like a surrogate lung) to a norbal ;-; I know I should have expected this, but it has kinda ended my colony already since most of my colonists are captured norbals xD