What about a "include mod content"-Alpha?

[Dr. Z]

I just rediscovered the mod section after I've played a few Alphas without and there are so many so good features wich really make the game more comfortable that I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to let Alpha 10 focus on including the best and most beneficial mods in the vanilla game. There are things that are requested by players since the beginning of RimWorld, like better prisons and more defenses, so why not just implement them?

[TheSilencedScream]

Unless Tynan himself comments, it's all speculation, but I've thought about this before. He -has- heavily borrowed from some mods before, so it has happened, but I think part of it might be that he wants to distinguish the game on his own.

Of course, a lot of mods can be immediately thrown out - a lot are nice or interesting, but only serve a niche portion of the people playing (examples like the Zombie Apocalypse mod and Weed mod).

I could also see, though, the potential for backlash if Tynan brought in a lot of mods to the core game:

Scenario 1.) How would you feel if a dozen mods were brought in, but not yours, and you think it should've been part of the core game? There's a potential to feel jaded (both FOR and AGAINST having your mod in the core game), and it's easy to step on toes.

Scenario 2.) If Tynan brings in a lot of mods, it may give the impression that he's running out of his own ideas and having to rely on others in order to keep adding content to the game. I know, he could avoid using "too many," but how many is that?

Scenario 3.) Some modders have mixed feelings about having their stuff incorporated. After all, they spent a lot of time and hard work on their mods, and they're not necessarily going to receive any recognition (or, certainly, any compensation) for laying the groundwork. That's the price of modding, of course, but I know (for example) that JuliaEllie's had several mods of hers incorporated or borrowed heavily from, and she doesn't know how she feels about it (first post in the link).

Scenario 4.) Depending on what's being update, it could mean a LOT of extra work to update. For example, with the weapon changes in A9, Project Armory (one of most popular weapons mods, based on thread size) now has to do a huge amount of revamping in order to release again for A9, if they want to release again. If Tynan had incorporated that mod, for example, all of that work would be on his plate - in addition to the continued bug fixes and the want to add/expand content.


Don't get me wrong. All that being said, I do feel that there are a few that certainly should be looked into (better Prisons, as you mentioned; EdB's UI; Miscellaneous's ability to occasionally trade with visiting factions; etc.).

Again, all of this is speculation, just things I would've been concerned about if I were in the dev's shoes. Unless Tynan comments, though, we're not going to have a real answer.

[skullywag]

A LOT of stuff has to be taken into account when adding any new feature to a game, having a group of people testing that feature via a mod is a good thing, however most of us are amateurs at this and our code isnt good sometimes so integrating a mod is a LARGE undertaking (dependant on the mod of course). Obviously some ideas Tynan has for the future are going to get made by modders, so it may seem hes "taking our ideas" but thats not always the case. As ive said a fair few times already, if you are modding for fame, money, glory or anything bar FUN/improving your skills, you should stop modding and go do something else, if a mod I make has the potential to be in the main game I would feel honoured to be even considered. I do this for fun and getting better at another programming language. When its no longer fun ill move on.

Another point is we should always take into account that Tynan is an artist, hes got a vision of how this game will look at the end, just because the community at large feel something should be in the game doesnt mean it should be added, Tynan has the only say in that imo.

[Gaesatae]

Unless Tynan himself comments, it's all speculation, but I've thought about this before. He -has- heavily borrowed from some mods before, so it has happened, but I think part of it might be that he wants to distinguish the game on his own.

Are you sure this is really what has happened? Because when you are creating content/improvements it's inevitable that you are going to run into the same ideas other people had probably implemented in a mod. For instance, skullywag here and I just happened to be working on the same thing for a mod at the same time (he called it "waterboarding - build on mud" and mine was called "foundations") and he posted it about two hours before I finished.

Now, returning to topic, I believe adding or borrowing some ideas from functionality mods could be good, but adding content mods could end poorly for the game and the community.

[skullywag]

stop copying me -_-

[TheSilencedScream]

It's possible, of course, but I give benefit of the doubt to those who published the content first. There's not exactly a patent system in place to determine who thought of what first.

I also never said he directly ripped from them or anything, but if you were in his position and implementing something that had already been done by a mod, would you not look into the mod to see what it did right/wrong in order to improve?

Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to criticize Tynan or accusing him of stealing or something. I'm just giving possible reasons as to why he doesn't snatch up every little mod to place in the vanilla, and saying that it's likely that he does get some inspiration from them.

[RemingtonRyder]

I think that what I like about Rimworld is that with each release there's more stuff to mod.  I'm not talking necessarily about tweaking a thing there or a doohickey here, but expanding on the base content.

So in Alpha 9 the new thing to mod could well be having all sorts of chems to keep the colony happy (also completely wasted). I could even forsee siegers getting a drop of chems. And for the hell of it, why not mod in a chem mortar?

[Gaesatae]

I also never said he directly ripped from them or anything, but if you were in his position and implementing something that had already been done by a mod, would you not look into the mod to see what it did right/wrong in order to improve?

I had almost the same conversation with some writers some time ago. Some of them keep up with the works of other authors of the genre and openly admit being influenced by them, while others refuse to read new works from other authors until they finished their own work, trying to avoid influences. None is better than the other, they just serve different purposes.

In my case I prefer not to be influenced by others until I finish, so the only mod I played with is EdB Interface, and I only look at other mods code when looking for help. It's what works for me when creating.

stop copying me -_-

LOL

[evrett33]

When one goes ice skating you pay the guy 5 bucks to use their ice sheet but you've also spent 300$ on skates from a 3rd party so you dont need to share someone else's foot sweet. I'm curious whether we are at a point where the mods have eclipsed the vanilla platform. 'Cause what we are really asking for (with the exception of UI luv) is expansions on the vanilla content.

[TheSilencedScream]

When one goes ice skating you pay the guy 5 bucks to use their ice sheet but you've also spent 300$ on skates from a 3rd party so you dont need to share someone else's foot sweet. I'm curious whether we are at a point where the mods have eclipsed the vanilla platform. 'Cause what we are really asking for (with the exception of UI luv) is expansions on the vanilla content.

Honestly, I'm of the belief that the game is still trying to catch up to the mods. Tynan has a fantastic game, but there are many (myself included) who have stated that they're waiting to play A9 until -insert random mods here- are updated for A9.

There's a lot of effort that goes in on Tynan's part. Looking through the bug reports from the public testing, I don't know how he has any hair left - between stress and pulling out my own, I'd have been bald back at A3, if I worked as hard as he does. And the combat mechanics and health system - they're really impressive for an indie game. But, as I've said before, within just 3-4 in-game months, you're at the late-mid game and there's little to do besides research things that you may not use. You're either working towards building a ship or preparing yourself against the waves that will inevitably wipe your colony (though, the latter may take several in-game years).

The game is well-balanced and is mostly bug free, but content-wise, it's lacking... which is what makes the mods a necessity, in my eyes, for anyone that's putting in more than 2-3 hours in a week because - to a pretty large extent - it gets repetitive.

[Rock5]

Now, returning to topic, I believe adding or borrowing some ideas from functionality mods could be good, but adding content mods could end poorly for the game and the community.

+1

I believe Tynan is more concerned with providing a stable, functionality rich, versatile platform and leaving content creation to modders, for now. He is focused on building a strong foundation. If he was in the habit of adding a lot of content then the foundation of the game wouldn't be as good. Of course he does add a little content but I like to think of it at 'core' content (well we can hope).

So the most likely mods to make it into vanilla, I think, are functionality mods such as EdB Interface.

[CheeseGromit]

... borrowing some ideas from functionality mods could be good ...

I certainly agree with this bit. I know I've got a couple of must have mods that overcome some of the limitations in the current design, I'm sure I'll find more over time. I don't think either of them should be included in the base game as they though. Rather they and mods like them should be looked at as 'super suggestions', "this is something we think needed improving and this is how we've done it". From there it's up to Tynan to decide whether he agrees and can come up with a better way of achieving the same result.

[Dr. Z]

I think some of you might have missunderstanded what kind of mods I originally had in mind when writing this. I was not talking about big mods like the zombie apokalypse or project armory which "just" add more content, these are things that can be done by modders and I also think that Tynan wants to deliver a good base game which can be expanded by them.

What I was talking about are the little mods that make the game just more playable and serve comfort. Like the interface UI, better prisons, vein miner, haul priority. These mods make the game so much more enjoyable and would be relatively easy to implement (I think).

[skullywag]

Tynan likes to target his alphas on particular things, I have heard him state for instance that he may spend A10 getting the AI a little nicer, ive also heard him state that he has plans for the interface and will obviously look at what we have been finding good in EdBs (as its really the only one) if not speaking directly to EdB. My point is this is alpha, it is iterative, theres other value he can be adding the game before the "nice to haves" get added, for now the mods can cover those. I would expect a few alphas in the next load to have some "house keeping" in them.

[rakkaus]

I think Tynan would be committing a mistake if he decides to add a large amount of vanilla content before, let's say, the early Beta. I can imagine many ways to go in order to expand the foundations of the game. One may say that Alpha is a good place to do the groundwork and Beta a place to use this ground to grow things up until the point you have enough vanilla features with a style of it's own to call it a complete gameplay experience.

Meanwhile we are in the Alpha period, there will be mods that uses the layed foundations to create content, this content will carry the game development with ease until the late beta. I think Ludeon can and should get inspired by modders content, and with their own vision forge what has a place in the final vanilla. Merging whole content mods is of couse a bad idea since the modder has a plan of its own, he has a specific destination and balancing in mind. But some of the mods serve to fix a specific missing thing at the vanilla that would be otherwise very clunchy to play without it. Such is the ones already mentioned in this thread and that, in my personal point of view, should find a way into the vanilla while we are at Alpha.