Reverse the Decision on Trees and Fertilizer Pumps...

[Mathenaut]

The primary problem with shifting wood to traders (specific traders at that) is that he hasn't adjusted frequency of trade ships nor implemented a way to call traders.

This just makes wood nigh inaccessible in late game. To make it worse, there are several constructions that can't be made without wood.

If this is a balance thing, it needs to not be done half-way.

[Eleazar]

the trouble being that hydroponics in their current state are absolutely useless. They require power; which in the frequent solar exclipses and solar flares makes them nonviable in icy areas...where they are needed.

If a solar eclipse kills your colony, that's totally preventable through power diversification and/or batteries.

I have survived with little problem through the long winters in cold biomes on hydroponics with a little hunting so i can make fine meals.  Yes, the crop will die from time to time.  You just need to have enough people on farming, and have enough capacity so that you have built up a buffer of food to tide you through the down-time.

The primary problem with shifting wood to traders (specific traders at that) is that he hasn't adjusted frequency of trade ships nor implemented a way to call traders.

Um, he's just starting alpha 10.  It isn't wise to complain about a change based on the assumption that no other balancing changes will be made.  He can't make all changes simultaneously.

[Vaperius]

The primary problem with shifting wood to traders (specific traders at that) is that he hasn't adjusted frequency of trade ships nor implemented a way to call traders.

This just makes wood nigh inaccessible in late game. To make it worse, there are several constructions that can't be made without wood.

If this is a balance thing, it needs to not be done half-way.

Well actually he made those things stuffed in the same stroke; which is why I posted a direct link to his dev blog;  people that hadn't already found it can book mark it and keep track of his progress and critique him...

Still; it not exactly practical to make a butcher table out of stone or metal....since stone is a essential art and construction material for mid-late game construction and metal is...well. hard to find in late game as you hollow out entire maps to expand your compound.

[Vaperius]

the trouble being that hydroponics in their current state are absolutely useless. They require power; which in the frequent solar exclipses and solar flares makes them nonviable in icy areas...where they are needed.

If a solar eclipse kills your colony, that's totally preventable through power diversification and/or batteries.

I have survived with little problem through the long winters in cold biomes on hydroponics with a little hunting so i can make fine meals.  Yes, the crop will die from time to time.  You just need to have enough people on farming, and have enough capacity so that you have built up a buffer of food to tide you through the down-time.

The primary problem with shifting wood to traders (specific traders at that) is that he hasn't adjusted frequency of trade ships nor implemented a way to call traders.

Um, he's just starting alpha 10.  It isn't wise to complain about a change based on the assumption that no other balancing changes will be made.  He can't make all changes simultaneously.

Oh....thanks for reminding me...when the power goes out...in winter...in a far north tundra mountain biome..and wood is scare...you aren't going to have enough to keep all your colonists warm...

Granted maybe he trying to contrive the environment by making it more challenging but honestly I don't see the point; we already have to deal with endless waves of ever growing raiders....and forcing us to use metal over wood;wood being a weak and conservative choice to our precious metal reserves...well..you get the picture...

Also; Solar Flares; DISABLE ALL ELECTRONICS....no amount of power diversification is going to keep your crops from wilting in the cold...a warm fire inside the room might if it is properly insultated but aside from that...nope

Ehem; Anyway; it more about having to chose between costly long term hydroponics; and cheap but slow growing soil which require complex engineering to keep them working indoors...

[Gennadios]

Just checked the changelog, no issues here.

My current game is on a Taundra map and literally all farming has to be done indoors (I detest hydroponics for the reasons mentioned.)

I'm late enough into the game that it's time to start sculpting and smithing, no wood for either tables, and it took me a while to realize that traders don't sell it. I've been waiting for my small plantation of oak trees to grow for ages. I'd much rather just buy a few logs.

I don't really care if fertilizer pumps get re-implemented, but it would be nice if different plant types could be grown on different soil. I found the caveworld flora mod and it really feels like mushroom farming should be in the game proper.

[Dive]

I've been liking to use trees as a decoration. The complete removal of tree sowing seems like a bit too radical decision, imho.

[akiceabear]

What I'm hearing is a lot of complaints that the two easiest ways to circumvent harsh environments (Arctic, desert, etc) are now nerfed/removed. And I say good riddance. No one has any idea what balance for A10 will look like and should hold their complaints until it is out. Tynan and private testers will surely be working on balance.

These environments should be incredibly difficult, and should play radically different from temperate ones, beyond just basic temperature control for pawns bedrooms!

I'm fine with the concepts of sowing trees and fertilizer pumps being reintroduced, but clearly they need a massive rebalance so that different biomes play differently and so that the game mechanics fit well within the rimverse/reality. For trees that probably means making grow times much much slower, and for fertilizer pumps making them much much more expensive to operate. Terra-forming an entire desert or arctic tile in a few game-weeks means the system is broken.

[Vaperius]

Just checked the changelog, no issues here.

My current game is on a Taundra map and literally all farming has to be done indoors (I detest hydroponics for the reasons mentioned.)

I'm late enough into the game that it's time to start sculpting and smithing, no wood for either tables, and it took me a while to realize that traders don't sell it. I've been waiting for my small plantation of oak trees to grow for ages. I'd much rather just buy a few logs.

I don't really care if fertilizer pumps get re-implemented, but it would be nice if different plant types could be grown on different soil. I found the caveworld flora mod and it really feels like mushroom farming should be in the game proper.

Well to be fair your suppose to enclose the trees, place heats to maintain a regulated temperature and light them with sun lamps when it below their growing range for temp.

But I never dis-advocated logging/wood trading; I am just suggesting making us have to choose more strategically between planting our own trees and processing the lumber or getting the preprocessed crap straight from a trader

[Vaperius]

I've been liking to use trees as a decoration. The complete removal of tree sowing seems like a bit too radical decision, imho.

It is very radical; I am not really an advocate for wholesale reintegration; I want these features balanced properly rather then removed out right;

aside from all the other stuff; I think you should have bigger research chains for fertilizer pump and a "forestry; 1000pt" research topic to plant any kind of tree

[CodyRex123]

Makes sense... except that nearly everybody has planted a tree in their lifetime so yea...

[Vaperius]

What I'm hearing is a lot of complaints that the two easiest ways to circumvent harsh environments (Arctic, desert, etc) are now nerfed/removed. And I say good riddance. No one has any idea what balance for A10 will look like and should hold their complaints until it is out. Tynan and private testers will surely be working on balance.

These environments should be incredibly difficult, and should play radically different from temperate ones, beyond just basic temperature control for pawns bedrooms!

I'm fine with the concepts of sowing trees and fertilizer pumps being reintroduced, but clearly they need a massive rebalance so that different biomes play differently and so that the game mechanics fit well within the rimverse/reality. For trees that probably means making grow times much much slower, and for fertilizer pumps making them much much more expensive to operate. Terra-forming an entire desert or arctic tile in a few game-weeks means the system is broken.

I agree; they really need to re-balance; there is a good reason for this thread; it to bring up the fact Tynan removed these features without at least as far as we know; considering simply fleshing out and re-balancing them...

Research Forestry for trees etc and a deeper set of requirements to operate the pumps.

Deserts and Tundra should be difficult. Fundamentally these features didn't nerf them; it a very common and realistic idea of straightforward ecological engineering; Also terraforming is turning an inhospitable world and making it more earth like XD

What pumps and tree planting do is Ecological engineering; which is improving an existing biome to be more functional for Human or Animal Needs.

[Vaperius]

Makes sense... except that nearly everybody has planted a tree in their lifetime so yea...

assuming your refering to the forestry thing; yeah it more "suddenly we can plant trees mean for tropical climates in a desert"

Hmm....there another nerf; diversify soil qualities so that you have to improve soil gradually to be able to plant larger and more impressive plant types.

Think about it; if soil had...grades

A,B,C,D,E,F

F Grade is potato's, Poverty Grass etc

A Grade is Devilstrand and Oak Trees

Get the idea; then you'd have to either seriously invest in improving soil quality to grow trees and devil strand (which as it is is kinda over-powered once you get your first load of it)

then we'd find a compromise...perhaps...thoughts anyone ?

[CodyRex123]

Makes sense... except that nearly everybody has planted a tree in their lifetime so yea...

assuming your refering to the forestry thing; yeah it more "suddenly we can plant trees mean for tropical climates in a desert"

Hmm....there another nerf; diversify soil qualities so that you have to improve soil gradually to be able to plant larger and more impressive plant types.

Think about it; if soil had...grades

A,B,C,D,E,F

F Grade is potato's, Poverty Grass etc

A Grade is Devilstrand and Oak Trees

Get the idea; then you'd have to either seriously invest in improving soil quality to grow trees and devil strand (which as it is is kinda over-powered once you get your first load of it)

then we'd find a compromise...perhaps...thoughts anyone ?

Alright, You/your family has planted a tree before right? In real life? Thats what i mean, Why would it be any diffent so many years in the future, except on industrious worlds. But whatever, ya get what i mean.

[Vaperius]

Makes sense... except that nearly everybody has planted a tree in their lifetime so yea...

assuming your refering to the forestry thing; yeah it more "suddenly we can plant trees mean for tropical climates in a desert"

Hmm....there another nerf; diversify soil qualities so that you have to improve soil gradually to be able to plant larger and more impressive plant types.

Think about it; if soil had...grades

A,B,C,D,E,F

F Grade is potato's, Poverty Grass etc

A Grade is Devilstrand and Oak Trees

Get the idea; then you'd have to either seriously invest in improving soil quality to grow trees and devil strand (which as it is is kinda over-powered once you get your first load of it)

then we'd find a compromise...perhaps...thoughts anyone ?

Alright, You/your family has planted a tree before right? In real life? That is what i mean, Why would it be any diffent so many years in the future, except on industrious worlds. But whatever, ya get what i mean.

Planting trees isn't a really common thing in Urban and Suburban areas...

Plus real life has soil quality; and in desert and tundra the ground is too poor in nutrients at the get go to plant in and just adding new soil doesn't cut it XD trees go deep into it, so grade would basically be representing how rich the soil is inherently. with grade A being rich enough for deep root growing oaks to prosper...



And for gods sake...capitalize your I's .... o.o

[CodyRex123]

*Sigh* And thats what i kinda said, Industrious worlds won't really have that, However, seeing as we have both a cryosleep time and normal time, Who ever said that someone's past is the only thing they had happen in their life? What if 60 year old Sara had lived also on a glitterworld planet of which the main goal of life is enjoyment? Thats not including the fact that most back stories in the game gave a lot of room to plant a tree.
Also, Rather not deal with a grammar thing, If the spell check doesn't say its wrong, then its fine. Then again... thats is said to be wrong... WTF?