Suggestions request: Ways to fulfill a "joy" need

Started by Tynan, March 14, 2015, 03:13:03 AM

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Specialist290

#30
Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 12:32:19 AM
Quote from: Specialist290 on March 14, 2015, 10:47:22 PMstuff

Let's please keep it on topic, thanks.

My apologies, but how was my suggestion off-topic?  Wouldn't indulging oneself in one's favorite food be considered a valid way to find a "release" from everyday pressures along the lines of what you're asking for?

Darkhymn

Quote from: Specialist290 on March 16, 2015, 05:01:07 AM
Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 12:32:19 AM
Quote from: Specialist290 on March 14, 2015, 10:47:22 PMstuff

Let's please keep it on topic, thanks.

My apologies, but how was my suggestion off-topic?  Wouldn't indulging oneself in one's favorite food be considered a valid way to find a "release" from everyday pressures along the lines of what you're asking for?

You were suggesting an entirely new set of mechanics, which while technically relevant to the topic at hand, would only ever be so secondarily. While eating a favorite food could certainly contribute to a joy need, the rest of what you suggested functioned as thoughts separate from the mechanic being worked on here.


I'm really loving the input I'm seeing here. The idea of being able to micro a colonist's joy need but not required to is ideal to me and fits the game's current manual prioritization mechanics.

I'd also be thrilled to see the joy bar filling while a colonist is exercising a passion, and perhaps a minor drain when doing work they're not interested in. This would make the random character creation make more sense, as I've seen at least one flame on all but one or two skills before, which has struck me as incongruous. How many people can be passionate green thumbs and melee brawlers, plus actively interested in mining, construction, cooking, and medicine? If instead one flame marked neutral feeling on a subject, and none marked something of no interest to the colonist, the denotation would be different.

Specialist290

I see.  Thanks for clarifying.  I'll consider starting my own topic for my idea so I don't keep cluttering this one up, if that's allowed.

Johnny Masters

#33
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 16, 2015, 05:33:57 AM
I'd also be thrilled to see the joy bar filling while a colonist is exercising a passion, and perhaps a minor drain when doing work they're not interested in. This would make the random character creation make more sense, as I've seen at least one flame on all but one or two skills before, which has struck me as incongruous. How many people can be passionate green thumbs and melee brawlers, plus actively interested in mining, construction, cooking, and medicine?

I suppose that's how it will work, every action you do will drain joy except when you do joy actions.
Problem with passions being tied to joy is that, besides there being a lot of them (probably would need a re-balance with a more economical approach) some passions simply don't cut it as "joy-bringers,  passions were made to regulate pawn growth but were not made with joy in mind, so passions like mining are there to make someone good at mining but its very hard to believe they actually like to spend their days in a dark hole getting smudged all over.

You can be satisfied and content with your profession, but its usually the personal pursuing that brings joy, not when you're doing it for someone else. A crafter wouldn't get joy from crafting a sword, but would get joy by crafting a toy or a ship-in-a-bottle or something of personal value. I'm aware that someone might enjoy crafting a sword, but i'm talking about professionals working day-to-day not hobbyists, so for a gameplay decision we'd have to say that work/profit related stuff you wouldn't get joy but personal/non-profit stuff you get joy.

That said, while i don't think passion should be a big thing on earning joy (or better, it shouldn't), it might have an impact on how you lose it: You drain less joy from doing a passion related job. How does that sound?

Quote from: Darkhymn on March 16, 2015, 05:33:57 AM
If instead one flame marked neutral feeling on a subject, and none marked something of no interest to the colonist, the denotation would be different.

So, to follow, a passion would reduce joy drain (supposing we'd have a joy meter). non-Passions would incur in normal drain. What about a "negative" passion? A red flame, an aversion?

As i suggested somewhere before, i think survivors don't get to say they are incapable of doing jobs (specially dumb labor like hauling), but incapacity of certain tasks should be exchanged for red flames of aversion, so while they can still perform said tasks, the joy drain would be very high. For example, you can still force you lazy noble to work his ass off, but he will be pretty pissed about it!

Besides passion, it's quite given that background and traits should influence over which joy options the pawn would prefer or get the most joy out of it.
Something like this:
- Every pawn has a base % of chance to pursue a certain joy "attraction". Say you have x joy options, each pawn would have some random number assigned to each, like a 1-10% of pursuing it. Then traits, backgrounds and passions would give a boost to a few related joy attractions, increasing or decreasing the chance of pursue, but not negating others. Likewise, temporary events and thoughts could have a say on this %, like a feast is happening and the desire to pursue joy by chatting and drinking goes way up.
-Every joy provides certain fulfillment that also has a random base and is influenced by traits, passions and thoughts.
-To keep it organic and lively, is that even if a certain joy attraction gives more joy, there's still a chance they'd pursue different joys. A mood buff by doing having multiple types of joy could be in order

-Each joy also could have distinct execution times, joy value and mood buffs (its not clear how joy will interact with mood?). So while gaming could fill the joy bar it would not provide a mood bonus after you stopped playing, while having sex or having watched an aurora Borealis could give a small day bonus.

--

@Tynan:

How do you think it will or it should work the interaction between joy and mood?

The simple way would be to: A joy meter that below a certain threshold gives a mood debuff, and above a mood buff. Would that be it?

Darth Fool

Some more thoughts:

Playing practical jokes.
Exploring new areas.
Learning new things.
Meeting new people.
Personally owning things/spaces (as opposed to the current communal ownership)
Achieving personal skill related goals (such as crafting a legendary weapon or artwork, hauling 1000 items,  slaying 100 enemies with their bare hands)
Gaining new cybernetic implants.
Killing enemies that match certain patterns (ie. prostophobe killing the cyberneticly enhanced)
Rescuing people who match certain patterns.
Making good trade deals.
Making things go boom.
Setting fires.

ctgill

Just a quick few thoughts while sipping on my morning coffee..

-Coffee (drinking, also would give more crop diversity)

-A Gym type room / all that goes along with it for those harsh biomes, maybe it could negate some cabin fever? If a colonist is inclined they could over-do it at the gym similar to binging that would come with a negative mood / impaired mobility due to being 'sore' and need to rest more for the next day or two.

-Comfort eating. Maybe an upgraded cook stove to make more luxurious foods for colonists. Birthday cakes maybe?

-I use the target practice mod which adds a shooting range sort of structure. Maybe something similar could be incorporated but more akin to 'blowing off steam' which would alleviate some of the negatives of day to day colony life if the person has a passion for shooting? (Also punching bags for melee? goes along with the gym thing sort of)

-A library type room where colonists can sit and read? Maybe an added task for researchers is to catalog the colony's history in paper form for future colonists. (Wouldn't research anything but perhaps a small trickle of research skill xp attributed to learning from past mistakes)

-Stopping to "Smell the flowers" - add more than just a passing beauty bonus to having a flower garden.

-I take joy personally in taking hot showers, this would require some manner of heated plumbing however. But overall feeling clean is a joy id imagine people running a dirty and gritty colony may indulge in if they were able.

-Tattoo or tribal paint, +for masochists +for artists. Done by an artist. Negative to mood and joy if artist value is low / turns out horrible.

-A colony message board (think particle board not internet forum) in a common room where colonists take a moment to reflect upon the coming day(s) and read about say any planned buildings or recent news. (Makes sense in the scope of 20+ people colonies.

That's all I got so far.
Yes. Yes, this is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... "This Land.".

Darth Fool

Another random thought...
Communications Station:  Calling home

ctgill

Quote from: Darth Fool on March 16, 2015, 03:59:38 PM
Another random thought...
Communications Station:  Calling home

In the context of crashing and being stranded on a rim planet you'd think if they had the ability to call for home they could radio for help?
Yes. Yes, this is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... "This Land.".

Coenmcj

Sorry if it's in there already, I lightly skimmed the following posts, But what about the traits?
Such as Cannibal, Nudist, Bloodlust etc. Nudist recieving joy from being in the nude, cannibal from eating humans of course. But how would the Bloodlust, Psychopath and Masochists be handled?
Moderator on discord.gg/rimworld come join us! We don't bite

Johnny Masters

Quote from: ctgill on March 16, 2015, 04:14:54 PM
Quote from: Darth Fool on March 16, 2015, 03:59:38 PM
Another random thought...
Communications Station:  Calling home

In the context of crashing and being stranded on a rim planet you'd think if they had the ability to call for home they could radio for help?

Perhaps he means attempting calling home, that would make more sense and a cute ref to e.t. (i like it)

Quote from: Coenmcj on March 16, 2015, 04:51:00 PM
Sorry if it's in there already, I lightly skimmed the following posts, But what about the traits?
Such as Cannibal, Nudist, Bloodlust etc. Nudist recieving joy from being in the nude, cannibal from eating humans of course. But how would the Bloodlust, Psychopath and Masochists be handled?

Since joy is still a muddled concept and we don't know how it will interact with mood, i'd say traits shouldn't specifically give joy as they already give mood. So, let's say that we'll have a "joy meter" similar to hunger and mood, what is the impact of having a high joy or a low one? A mood buff or mood penalty? If it is so, then giving joy for having these traits is redundant.


Vaperius

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:03:42 AM
Thanks Vap, but please don't spam multiple posts in a row, especially with a big repeated quote. ( Rule 10: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=122.0 )

Fixed; I apologize; Forgot that rule o.o

Anyway; how exactly would colonist's build snow men..does this mean that snow will become a collectible resource? Could snowmen be made as partial cover during winter?
I remain Vigilant.

Johnny Masters

Quote from: Vaperius on March 16, 2015, 05:59:44 PM
Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:03:42 AM
Thanks Vap, but please don't spam multiple posts in a row, especially with a big repeated quote. ( Rule 10: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=122.0 )

Fixed; I apologize; Forgot that rule o.o

Anyway; how exactly would colonist's build snow men..does this mean that snow will become a collectible resource? Could snowmen be made as partial cover during winter?

Abstraction. If there's snow in the ground they stand there doing some movement until they create a snowman object out of nothing. It occupies a square and can be taken down, but isn't worth anything and doesn't give anything upon destruction. (that's how i'd do it).

kingtyris

Quote from: Johnny Masters on March 16, 2015, 05:25:32 PM
Since joy is still a muddled concept and we don't know how it will interact with mood, i'd say traits shouldn't specifically give joy as they already give mood. So, let's say that we'll have a "joy meter" similar to hunger and mood, what is the impact of having a high joy or a low one? A mood buff or mood penalty? If it is so, then giving joy for having these traits is redundant.

Having 'mood' and 'joy' in general is a bit redundant, as the difference seems a bit arbitrary. I've been waiting for such a system to be implemented, but I was thinking about it more along the lines of 'leisure' than 'joy'. Exercising or watching holo-dramas seems more along the lines of relaxation than joyful pursuit.

Tynan

#43
Quote from: kingtyris on March 16, 2015, 06:12:35 PM
Quote from: Johnny Masters on March 16, 2015, 05:25:32 PM
Since joy is still a muddled concept and we don't know how it will interact with mood, i'd say traits shouldn't specifically give joy as they already give mood. So, let's say that we'll have a "joy meter" similar to hunger and mood, what is the impact of having a high joy or a low one? A mood buff or mood penalty? If it is so, then giving joy for having these traits is redundant.

Having 'mood' and 'joy' in general is a bit redundant, as the difference seems a bit arbitrary. I've been waiting for such a system to be implemented, but I was thinking about it more along the lines of 'leisure' than 'joy'. Exercising or watching holo-dramas seems more along the lines of relaxation than joyful pursuit.

Mood is the integrated result of every other need in the game as passed through a set of thoughts, each with a mood offset.

Joy is much narrower and represents someone's need to relax and enjoy themselves and not be working/struggling all the time. I suppose I could call it "recreation" but I like short names, and "fun" doesn't quite capture it for me. Will have to consider the naming on this.

EDIT: Btw it works the same way as all the other needs (food, rest, fun, space, and beauty). They're all independent and they all ultimately just activate thoughts in the mood system. The mood is what does the actual work; it's the "final result" of all the needs' effects.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

Johnny Masters

Quote from: Tynan on March 16, 2015, 06:15:10 PM
Mood is the integrated result of every other need in the game as passed through a set of thoughts, each with a mood offset.

Joy is much narrower and represents someone's need to relax and enjoy themselves and not be working/struggling all the time. I suppose I could call it "recreation" but I like short names, and "fun" doesn't quite capture it for me. Will have to consider the naming on this.

EDIT: Btw it works the same way as all the other needs (food, rest, fun, space, and beauty). They're all independent and they all ultimately just activate thoughts in the mood system. The mood is what does the actual work; it's the "final result" of all the needs' effects.
.

Cool, it'll work as i predicted then, so joy from these particular traits would indeed be redundant. The way i see it, joy will work as some sort of buffer zone so your pawns don't need to immediately seek joy after some mood hits or to stop you from exploiting mood bonuses. Or something like that.

I like joy, better than the "idle activities" i've been wanting around. I see nothing wrong with recreation or entertainment aswell.