Trade Alternatives

[NephilimNexus]

The current problem with trade is that you only have one option: Space trade.  The problem with this is that it requires a beacon, and that beacon must not be covered by a roof, which means that anything made available for space trade is automatically, by default, left outdoors.

This wasn't a problem long ago before item decay was added to the game, but now everything left outdoors that isn't raw stone or metal slowly rots away.  Not only does this make it less useful, but it also rapidly wrecks any trade value it might have.

The easiest solution would be to add caravan based trade synchronized with the random passing villager spawns.  Next would be to link caravan trade to zones, as opposed to the beacon.  By linking to zones you could allow trade from indoor locations (including refrigerated areas), which would open up the possibility of actually being able to export things like food, medicine, and crafted goods without worrying about them all rotting away to nothing while waiting for the right spaceship to come along.

[ja7833]

As a gamer who grew up thinking my Intellivision was better than your Atari I have to admit its rare for a game to capture my imagination and time the way RimWorld has - even in its current state I think it is better than many other released games I have Kickstarted/Early Access backed.  Of all the things I like to suggest in the forums I think trade is the only one that needs significant changes for all the reasons you mentioned.  But most of all for...


"Hey guys my spaceship blew up and I managed to cobble together a radio using Gilligan's Island technology to contact you in SPACE but yeah... as much as I could use a new pair of your Calvin Klein hyperweave underwear to replace the ones I totally soiled in the crash in exchange for my silver and gold - can you swing by and pick me up instead?  

[Johnny Masters]

"Hey guys my spaceship blew up and I managed to cobble together a radio using Gilligan's Island technology to contact you in SPACE but yeah... as much as I could use a new pair of your Calvin Klein hyperweave underwear to replace the ones I totally soiled in the crash in exchange for my silver and gold - can you swing by and pick me up instead?  

Don't worry, soon you will be presented a number of half-assed excuses for this obviously blatantly plothole...Ah, the things we ignore out of love   

Regarding the topic: Yep, the whole trading could use some work. We already have trading caravans from mods, but since the orbital beacon is so hardcoded it makes the whole deal wonky. Anyway, its just a couple of patches before its introduced in vanilla is my guess.

I haven't thought much about it really but just from a glancing thought: Orbital beacons are just for allowing communication, everything can be stored anywhere but stuff sold is then hauled on demand to some orbital launching station or a special stockpile to be beamed up (whatever it is how it works in lore).

Low priority stuff is taken first, then perhaps nearest stockiples and high priority piles are forbidden to have its valuables hauled.

Does it create extra effort? Sure, but only barely, and its fun to watch your minion- err, i mean, pawns, work.

[Mathenaut]

It's not really a plothole. It's simply a question of: Where would you go?

It's nice to assume that a Glitterworld is right around the corner or something, but we know that explicitly is not the case.

If a trader picked you up for hitchhiking, that's either ALOT of food you'll be consuming on the trip, or alot of power/trust you're giving to some random guy whose mercy you'll be at when in cryosleep (and given how many random cryosleep pods you find littered around, it doesn't sound like it's a good idea).

Building your own ship is pretty much the most reliable means of getting to where you want to go.

[Johnny Masters]

Go anywhere but a raider-mech-tribal-disease infested planet?

C'mon man, these are the sort of excuses i was talking about, at the very least it's stretching plausibility VERY VERY thin. So, the trip is expensive? Buy it. In just a couple of years its possible to turn from a ragged group to a filthy wealth planetary enterprise. The ticket is VERY expensive? Well, then one must wonder why they are trading for potatoes instead of hauling people around for huge sums. Ok, but its really expensive because - mambo jambo. Alright, make it a endgame goal, amass X wealth to buy off out of the planet. Give it any excuse of reasoning, but after trader visit #159 you start to wonder what kind of sick twisted show someone put you into. Why is a Rimworld so busy anyway?

Is it dangerous to pick a interplanetary ride? Yes, but so is getting lost in a hostile planet. I'd take a lift over taking my chances in a lost planet any minute.

[BetaSpectre]

The current problem with trade is that you only have one option: Space trade.  The problem with this is that it requires a beacon, and that beacon must not be covered by a roof, which means that anything made available for space trade is automatically, by default, left outdoors.

This wasn't a problem long ago before item decay was added to the game, but now everything left outdoors that isn't raw stone or metal slowly rots away.  Not only does this make it less useful, but it also rapidly wrecks any trade value it might have.

The easiest solution would be to add caravan based trade synchronized with the random passing villager spawns.  Next would be to link caravan trade to zones, as opposed to the beacon.  By linking to zones you could allow trade from indoor locations (including refrigerated areas), which would open up the possibility of actually being able to export things like food, medicine, and crafted goods without worrying about them all rotting away to nothing while waiting for the right spaceship to come along.

You can now trade with roofs. Just put a beacon next to ANY stockpile and drops will be in unroofed areas near the beacon. But you don't need to have the beacon in an unroofed place now.

[Johnny Masters]

Well, seems a sloppy yet effective solution?

[Mathenaut]

Go anywhere but a raider-mech-tribal-disease infested planet?

i.e. All of them?

Just buy the trip? Sure. With what money? The time and cost of covering intergalactic taxi rides would conceivably dwarf just building your own ship. It doesn't exactly need a whole lot to fly.

Well, then one must wonder why they are trading for potatoes instead of hauling people around for huge sums.

Economics 101 would answer why a lucrative niche service would have a very limited demand.

Ok, but its really expensive because - mambo jambo.

Hitchhikers don't see great success in the most affluent western societies in the modern era, where the cost of helping is next to nothing; and you think trekking random colonists across lightyear distances for very-not-next-to-nothing costs is unrealistic?

Okay.

Why is a Rimworld so busy anyway?

It's not busy. Nobody is landing or going out of their way to visit. You are building a relay and flagging down people you can see with it.

[Johnny Masters]

i.e. All of them?

Just buy the trip? Sure. With what money? The time and cost of covering intergalactic taxi rides would conceivably dwarf just building your own ship. It doesn't exactly need a whole lot to fly.

You're assuming they're all like this. You know it may very well be not the case.

Buy with the game currency, silver?

Again you're assuming things, this time the price of a passage in a trading ship. It's cheaper to catch a ride than build a vehicle, anytime, anywhere. Sure, the one giving the ride might want a profit, but it's not because a few people will suddenly drain the vehicles resources to a halt, specially if we can argue that they can be put to cryosleep.

Just because the game makes it very easy to build a spaceship and fly it out, doesn't mean it makes sense or that catching a ride wouldn't make sense.

Economics 101 would answer why a lucrative niche service would have a very limited demand.

My economics is very basic, but i'd say that if there's someone willing to buy it then there's someone willing to sell it, or am i wrong?
I want to buy tickets off this planet. You don't sell it? Well, pass the word around and someone is probably bound to come.

Hitchhikers don't see great success in the most affluent western societies in the modern era, where the cost of helping is next to nothing; and you think trekking random colonists across lightyear distances for very-not-next-to-nothing costs is unrealistic?

Okay.

The analogy is wrong. Getting shipwrecked in a planet in rimworld is/should be akin to getting shipwrecked in a island in earthworld. Just like vessels are bound by law to render assistance, such space could very well have similar laws in the future. Of course, that would make a short game, but you see then that it's not the idea that getting rescued is far-fetched, its just that we have a gameish balance to have access to traders and still be stranded. Reason all you want, but it all boils down to this.

So, rescuing IS possible, it might be the case that such ships are not bound by law or they don't care about law. But if they care about money and you have money and the price of passage isn't such a unthinkable sum - which is your assumption - then we could have a ticket out.

It's not busy. Nobody is landing or going out of their way to visit. You are building a relay and flagging down people you can see with it.

It's VERY busy. You see a trader very regularly, you see the same company traders very regularly. You see people and raiders very regularly. It is a busy planet.

Does it matter if they come specifically for you or not? They pass in orbit or close to orbit and they come often. That is busy for me. Mileage may vary?


Look, i feel like we could exchange sharps and fancy words all day, but i don't see how, in currently written lore, why you wouldn't be offered a ticket out (besides game-balance related reasons). Let's agree to disagree.

[SSS]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that Tynan considers planet/land-based trading preferable to space trading; it just takes a lot more to implement, hence space trading.

That being said, whether or not the price of passage would be an unthinkable sum is an assumption either way. If we say it is, that's an assumption. If we say it isn't, that's an assumption too. We just don't know, and since we're not even sure that space trading will stay in the game in the long run, I don't think it's worth getting worked up over.

[Mathenaut]

You're assuming they're all like this. You know it may very well be not the case.

It's not assuming all are like this. Alot of them simply are, as described in the primer. This, versus assuming that rarer Glitterworlds are easily accessible across the street, which is.. just a little bit of a stretch. Just a little bit.

Again you're assuming things, this time the price of a passage in a trading ship. It's cheaper to catch a ride than build a vehicle, anytime, anywhere.

There is an entire conversation to be had on all the ways you'd be wrong. Being picky about assumptions is an axe with a backbite on this one.

Sure, the one giving the ride might want a profit, but it's not because a few people will suddenly drain the vehicles resources to a halt, specially if we can argue that they can be put to cryosleep.

Yeah and end up like the countless abandoned cryosleep pods found abandoned on every other rimworld, as previously mentioned. Have fun with that.

Just because the game makes it very easy to build a spaceship and fly it out, doesn't mean it makes sense or that catching a ride wouldn't make sense.

Never any kind words for these kinds of statements 

My economics is very basic, but i'd say that if there's someone willing to buy it then there's someone willing to sell it, or am i wrong?
I want to buy tickets off this planet. You don't sell it? Well, pass the word around and someone is probably bound to come.

It's not that it's false, it's just more of a non-sequitir. That is, you aren't really addressing the problem of why you're wrong. Would need another topic on this if we really need to cover basics.

The analogy is wrong. Getting shipwrecked in a planet in rimworld is/should be akin to getting shipwrecked in a island in earthworld.

More like being stranded somewhere in a 3rd world country. Which doesn't help the case you're trying to make. Nobody is required to help you leave, most probably don't even know you're there, and yes, you are much better off getting the hell out on your own than crying for help until something maybe happens.

You don't seem to understand what the world is really like outside of affluence.

So, rescuing IS possible, it might be the case that such ships are not bound by law or they don't care about law.

Or there is no law, much less an authority to enforce it. That's not a small problem for your argument.

But if they care about money and you have money..

They will probably take your money. You'll be lucky if anyone knows or cares.

It's VERY busy. You see a trader very regularly, you see the same company traders very regularly. You see people and raiders very regularly. It is a busy planet.

4-5 communities and traders that stop in the solar region (in comms range =/= in orbit) about once a month isn't busy on a rustic town scale, much less a planet scale. There's no mileage to vary on this.

Look, i feel like we could exchange sharps and fancy words all day, but i don't see how, in currently written lore, why you wouldn't be offered a ticket out (besides game-balance related reasons). Let's agree to disagree.

That's sort of the thing. There's alot you don't know, from basic economics, geography, astronomy/physics, to basically how things work outside of affluent societies, to arguably some of the game lore that's in the very easy to read primer.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't call it a qualified one.

User was warned for this post

[Johnny Masters]

See? Now you just crossed the line from being opinionated, which i respect, to being an outright passive-aggressive snobbish. Your text is so filled with low-esteemed fallacies that I'd have to spend a time you don't deserve so i could point them all out. Is the thought of someone disagreeing with you so poignant to your insecurities?

It's not assuming all are like this. Alot of them simply are, as described in the primer. This, versus assuming that rarer Glitterworlds are easily accessible across the street, which is.. just a little bit of a stretch. Just a little bit.

I said not all are like this, you said not all are like this. Tometo, tomato.
You're the one saying Glitterworlds, i never mentioned glitterworlds. Besides assuming things you like to twist other people's words, eh?

There is an entire conversation to be had on all the ways you'd be wrong. Being picky about assumptions is an axe with a backbite on this one.

Veiled threats. Empty words.

Yeah and end up like the countless abandoned cryosleep pods found abandoned on every other rimworld, as previously mentioned. Have fun with that.

Do you know why the pods are there? Why they were abandoned? Oh oh, i know! You are assuming things based on your point of view!

Never any kind words for these kinds of statements

Veiled insult. Empty words.

It's not that it's false, it's just more of a non-sequitir. That is, you aren't really addressing the problem of why you're wrong. Would need another topic on this if we really need to cover basics.

See that fallacy there? You WANT me to be wrong, you're undermining my statements with a silly authoritative speech based on a shallow piece of fragment boasting. I'm not addressing the problem why i'm wrong because i'm not wrong, you assumed things based on a very incomplete lore of a scifi game and i assumed back.

More like being stranded somewhere in a 3rd world country. Which doesn't help the case you're trying to make. Nobody is required to help you leave, most probably don't even know you're there, and yes, you are much better off getting the hell out on your own than crying for help until something maybe happens.

You don't seem to understand what the world is really like outside of affluence.

More assumptions. More condescending insults.

Or there is no law, much less an authority to enforce it. That's not a small problem for your argument.

Which i foreshadowed and said it myself.

They will probably take your money. You'll be lucky if anyone knows or cares.

More assumptions.

4-5 communities and traders that stop in the solar region (in comms range =/= in orbit) about once a month isn't busy on a rustic town scale, much less a planet scale. There's no mileage to vary on this.

Sounds like very busy taking in account they are in a rim planet. Also the hundreds of locals and several factions make it pretty busy as well. The mileage already varied, you think that current trading frequency is not busy and i happen to think they are, there's no arguing there, to each his own.

That's sort of the thing. There's alot you don't know, from basic economics, geography, astronomy/physics, to basically how things work outside of affluent societies, to arguably some of the game lore that's in the very easy to read primer.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't call it a qualified one.

What can i say? A quirky riposte? More veiled threats in response in an eternal senseless bickering? You're obvious a troll so I and everyone reading this should treat you as such. There's no more discussing to be done with you because you're only interested in hearing your own echo. Don't bother with a detailed response, although i will understand your ego needing the last word.

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that Tynan considers planet/land-based trading preferable to space trading; it just takes a lot more to implement, hence space trading.

That being said, whether or not the price of passage would be an unthinkable sum is an assumption either way. If we say it is, that's an assumption. If we say it isn't, that's an assumption too. We just don't know, and since we're not even sure that space trading will stay in the game in the long run, I don't think it's worth getting worked up over.

Now, that's a sensible remark. It is a waste of effort if everything could change in a couple of alphas.

[Tynan]

Discontinue the personal criticism.

If your message is about another poster instead of about the topic, don't post it.

[RemingtonRyder]

Indeed. You guys can be diplomatic and constructive. Make it so.

[Kegereneku]

The discussion is heating up, let's defuse it around I hope the common question :

- How can we justify the actual trade system with as little change as possible to make it 'fit' better in Rimworld ?

Myself I see a these roads to rationalize it.
1) They are automated cargo ship passing by planet to refuel (just so you know, water can be used to make space-fuel, and if you have good lift-off capability there's incentive to use planetary resources instead of ice asteroid)
why do they trade ? automated subroutine (they are cheating us out with their prices)
why don't they pick-up people ? no cryptopod and AI aren't legally obligated to render assistance.

Alternatively a manned spaceship isn't obligated to rescue people if they have no cryptopod free. (it could be an events), let's also remember that SLAVE TRADER are a thing in this universe.

2) They would actually be ...local non-interstellar trader, or even on the planet.
They could be a faction that have achieve what you want to achieve : get wealthy enough to have surplus or manufacture their own comfort.
However I have no reasons as to why we couldn't call them as we need them and saying they "didn't reach Interstellar-Ship" tech-level would ask for it to be way harder for us. (though it is implied to be a dangerous bet for us)

3) Last solution would be to trade with the other faction on the planet
But I see no reason they wouldn't hoard everything they can like glitterworld medecine.