Tactical engine expansion

Started by Galileus, November 17, 2013, 07:04:39 PM

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Galileus

Disclaimer: This is not "NOW ON NEVER!" idea nor "LEAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO DO EET!" one ;) Moreover, all the numbers and balancing in this post was done while high and should not be taken with any at all measure of seriousness.

Idea: Expand possibilities of tactics engine by adding in a few cheap features. And, later on, few not-so-cheap.

Reasoning: As it is now, tactical combat is almost great. Almost. There is a lot of fun to be had in controlling your pawns and looking out for them - but as it is now, it's seriously hindered by lack of options. While having a colonist killed every now and then is really great - having them killed because you simply lack necessary control over battlefield is not so good. The awesome features of tactics engine are passive now - which not only makes it a bit shallow, but most importantly makes player FEEL as if it was much more shallow and out of his control. Most battles feel like a pre-determined ones, where you couldn't do anything better or worse, and that makes battles a chore.

Complexity: Low. It adds a bunch of new features to be aware of, but most of them are self-explanatory and very clear in their consequences.

Implementation: I generally try to avoid any uber-features as I present different things that can be used. For most of them I try to think of a way they can be represented with existing game mechanics or as a flat modifier. Some of these will obviously reach farther - but this is something that cannot be avoided, unfortunately.

Correlation: Implementation of this idea would indirectly work with my previous perks system - perks could either widen or tighten player's possibilities as well as play right to some of presented below mechanics. More importantly this system would do wonders with Lazerlight's Injuries and medical stuff idea - ability to "rig" weapons for lesser damage or longer aim time in exchange for a chance to cause heavy or even critical wounds would be a great way to address power creep and linear progression (hack'n'slash numbers fishing) problems!

Proposals:

Aim type: Ability to switch between hip-shot, normal shot and aimed shot for drafted colonists. Pretty self-explanatory - in each case it's trading aim time for aim precision and vice versa. Could be extended to take weapon type into account - you can't really aim down the sights with some basic shotguns, and hip-shot with a sniper rifle is a really bad idea.

Firing mode: Ability to choose between single shot, double tap, burst fire and automatic fire depending on weapon equipped. This one is, again, pretty self explanatory - you get to choose between amount of shots fired and precision of aiming. What this one does different is it's dependence on weapons - to really feel the weight behind it, player must realize some weapons will simply be better at certain firing mode than others. Single fire mode will bring out a lot of precision from assault rifles, double tap is easiest on pistols and almost impossible on some low-tech shotguns, burst fire (3 or 5 shots, depending on weapon) is best on SMGs but does well on assault rifles; and of course continuous fire bodes well on assault rifles. At the same time it's not set in stone - while single shot can be indeed more reliable on pistol than on SMG, it's all depending on current situation.

Sprint: This one is tricky to approach, but I believe everyone and their mother know it's needed. Travelling between covers is non-existent now and for good reasons. Giant snails make for good firing practice after all! Sprint ability would greatly boost minion's speed for a time - while requiring him to catch his breath afterwards and causing a pause before he can get back to shooting - or simply affect accuracy for a while afterwards. Also, for Overlord's sake, accuracy! I was looking for that word for last few days! Anyway - the tricky part here is how to "cool off" the skill. Obvious choice is a timer, but I'm not a big fan of timers. If nothing else pops up - it's the best way after all, but would be nice to have something different. Stamina bar sounds nice, but it's a much bigger strain on implementation.

Smoke grenades and flashbangs: Absolute must have, especially for raiders as it gives them a LOT more tools to play with. Smoke screen is quite obvious - for each tile of smoke character needs to aim through, he gets penalty to accuracy. Flashbang could work two-way - it creates a timed penalty to accuracy and movement speed as well as short stun period. The problem lies with implementation as well - both smoke cloud and flashbang impact need to be aware of obstacles.

Suppression fire and covering fire:
This two go a long way in presenting new possibilities. Suppression fire is used to pin-down enemy soldiers and make it impossible for them to move out of cover, while covering fire has the exact opposite effect - it's used to allow your fellow squad-mates to move through dangerous area. While the two seem similar, there is a major difference between them - suppression is about fast-shooting and burning of ammo, while covering fire is about precision and ammo economics. In game terms - suppression fire should slow down raiders and possibly forbid them from moving if the tile they are moving to is not under cover as well, lowering their rate of fire and accuracy, while having rather low chance to hit. Covering fire on the other hand means keeping on watch for enemy and taking short bursts only when they are looking out of cover - and it's target should get accuracy reduction when shooting at moving targets, while the covering fire gets only a low accuracy penalty.

Overwatch: If Raiders are going to be defenders in future, it's an absolute must-have. What it does is it narrows pawn's cone of firing while giving a bonus to accuracy and keeping him in ready-to-fire state until a target presents itself. Overwatch is lost on first shot/burst.

AI only - Breaching, bang&clear Raiders have a great problem with doors, you know? And it just so happens doors have a great problem with shotguns. Have a raider stationed next to doors and waiting for the rest or them to get behind him - then he does the breach, and throws in a grenade right away. That's one for raiders and zero for these pesky colonists death-traps. You can even get fancy and take a look at what is the most obvious danger behind the doors. Turrets? Smoke'em. Colonists? Bang'em. Killsquad out in the open? Frag'em.

AI only -  RPGs Walls. No frells are given. Rocket propelled grenades are. One shot kind of deal, but boy, 3x3 impact area and wall destroying deal? Is a nice deal!

AI only -  Directional charges Walls. No frells are given. Directional charges can be set up on walls if Raiders are not under attack (or if they can be smart enough to covering fire their explosives expert through the field) and takes out a line of 5 blocks away. Would be a nasty surprise for these funnelling guys!

AI only - Camisade Raiders attack at night, when everyone is asleep. No "Raiders started their attack" message is given.

AI only - Covering usage Raiders should split into 2 or 3 groups, depending on their weapon. A group with ability to cover fire should do so, and only after that short-ranged units would move into their own positions. Also - leapfrogging. Group A moves to a better position while B provides covering fire. Then A provides covering fire, and B joins. Repeat till all bases r belong to us.

AI only - Haste Some raiders parties don't prepare for assault, but rather start attacking right away. These parties would suffer minor penalties to accuracy and aiming time.

AI only - Hit'n'run, feint retreat Some raider parties should retreat and retry attack from different angle if possible, or even try to fake a retreat to get defenders out of their positions.

AI only - Aggressive Reacon Often players hide their troops right behind the corner to lure Raiders in. Raiders should have an ability to make an reacon by fire - shooting at these corners and having a % chance that pawn hiding close-by will answer with fire.

AI only - Flushing Give Ai more incentive to use flushing - use tear grenades, flasbangs and any other means to force colonists to move.


Luckless

Firing modes really should only matter if we ever see ammo levels as a thing. Selecting what kind of mode to shoot in is just micromanagement, and without the strategic decision of ammunition supplies to account for it just sounds like needless micromanagement. If we don't have to worry about how much people are shooting, reload times, etc, then firing mode should merely be rolled into what role on the battlefield someone is assigned, not me having to go back and tell the idiot sniper that he has to actually try and aim now that he isn't merely trying to put as much lead down range to keep heads down.

For aim types I would much rather see it tied to deployment styles instead, and my suggestions build off of some of what you've already posted. The big difference in my view is a focus on friendly force interaction. I don't think the system should be about purely micromanaging individual units and their actions, but giving the system itself enough power that it naturally builds a synergy between characters. (If done well it also means the system that makes it easier for the human to manage also gives a nice 'free' boost to the ability of the AI who gets to use the same system.)

I would suggest keeping it simple, such as choosing between role options like marksman, cover fire, and suppression fire modes that interact with each other. Hopefully it gives you similar effects to the suggestions in the original post, as well as a more graceful system than just individuals changing states.

Suppression mode attempts to establish a fairly steady level over an area that then forces the opposing units to take cover, and continues to do so.

Cover fire mode will take reasonably aimed shots at targets of opportunity with better odds of killing something in heavy cover, but then lay in with heavier levels of fire if a nearby unit signals they are about to move, are reloading, or beginning a marksman shot.

Marksmen units then take more time, aim carefully, and fire when the target is most exposed, but are less likely to expose themselves to fire. They would sync with cover fire units who lay down shots to give the marksman time to rise out of their full cover and aim, then wait as the cover fire unit has finished their volley so that the opposition rise back from their own full cover before taking a shot.

Integrate this with an improved movement system with at least two modes. Move orders, and force move orders (move order while holding ctrl or something). When just given a move order a unit will wait until they are not suppressed, and suppression or cover fire units have begun their volley. If no volleys are pending (ie, only cover units active near them) then they will send out cover requests before moving.

Units with higher combat skills will of course integrate with each other better, being more effective at their role (Suppression/cover units hit closer to targets, marksmen hit more often, all roles closer to hitting targets which gives nearer misses to force units into a deeper suppressed state, recover from suppressed states, etc), and are more accurate in their timing. (ie, low skill units might move before units are fully suppressed, or wait too long so the enemy is coming out of suppression before they move and before the next suppression/cover fire volley goes off. Low skilled cover units take longer before they start shooting, etc.)

Galileus

See, I do like the idea of roles on the battlefield (as you can see from perks system) but I definitely don't like the lack of elasticity and control your system supports. I am well aware my system my lead to micromanagement - and that's exactly why I don't promote any active skills (headshots, bursts as skills and such). In perfect situation you would need to set up your preferences once - and then still have the option to fine-tune them if you desire and if the situation gets out of hand.

System you describe gets through the same problem I was aiming at fixing - lack of control, or at least lack of feeling of control over battlefield. If certain roles simply cooperate with each other the same way, every way - players will still end up with pre-defined set-ups, doing the same thing every battle. Covering goes there, marksman goes there and so on... Ability to change some minor setup on the spot would allow player to be able to respond to a much wider range of possibilities and - if done well - shouldn't really bump up micro all that much. Drag n' choose few closest folks and order them to hipfire when someone rushes you or keep things steady on longer ranges. The very big thing behind it is that you don't need to do all that micro all the time - it's just situational ability to adapt, used in a specific circumstances to regain control and be able to respond.

I think it would be a good idea to be able to set a default modes for all these setting - so that pawns return to that every time they are released from draft. That way you would really only get around it in specific situation, when you definitely need more control.

All in all I don't think a bit of micromanagement would do badly for tactical engine. As it is now (and as it would be with passive systems such as yours) there is simply no management involved at all. You place your troops and that's that - changing positions is out of the question due to snail pace, and nothing else to do, really. This only work to reinforce the TD problem that is so... well... problematic. In the end I believe it's better to have a well flushed out combat system that can engage it's fans and can be simply turned off for others (on low-raiders difficulties) - when the alternative is to have a repetitive system that has no elasticity about it at all.

todofwar

Ok totally missed this thread when I just posted a thread on combat controls, my apologies. I think I had more movement control in mind though. Anyway, I like the idea of more specific roles, with a larger group it gives more tactical options to keep things fresh. I think you've gone a bit too specific in some areas though, but that's just me.

Galileus

Yeah, I do get that feeling of going to deep too. I sincerely cannot say what way to swing here - because I do also get the impression, that while it's a lot of stuff, all of this would pop up rarely and integrate nicely and quietly. Can't tell without a playtest, really :/

But do indulge me and point out what you think goes too deep. Always good to have criticism!

Workload

Hey Galileus does this sound ok to add to your list.     What about a command that tells units with any guns but snipers, To move and shoot at the same time but really slow and if they walk into cover they will stop till given that order again. This can help as well to get up close without running into gun fire till there right next to you.

As for criticism I guess the aim modes could be a bit much for micromanagement.

And 1 problem with Suppression fire it might trap someone behind a wall and they will stop shooting cause they can't see him and they move out of there cover, after a set time to find new targets

For everything else seems good would be fun to have more complex combat. People might find it hard that the AI can pick orders really fast and move everyone at once and be able to use your system on you, Tho you do have pause but this could make battles very long. Don't get me wrong I love when the combat gets crazy and you have to flank them to win, Unless you funnel but I don't do that.

Littlemule

If one of you're colonists was pinned down with suppresion fire you could break suppression fire with covering fire

e.g. One of your colonists is pinned by Sniper fire so you send in a another colonist to suppress the Sniper. All the while sending another colonists with an M24 to snipe at the original raider.

I think being able to flank the raiders would add an interesting mechanic to the combat too by adding that fear element to the raiders by being surrounded.

E.g extended suppresion fire results in the raider fleeing only to run into your flanking colonists

Pendryn

I really like almost all of this. A lot.

Two things.

First, rather than a sprint command, it could be defaulted that if a target is actively moving around, the accuracy to hit is is drastically reduced. Or maybe that is already a thing, but I doubt it is.

Second, with the ability to switch firing types should come a vast change in reload speeds. Also reloading should be a thing. Right now I assume the wait between shots is really just adjusting for a new shot rather than replenishing ammo.

Actually I guess I didn't have an issue with any of this, just my own thoughts. Neat.
Reticulating all the splines.

Galileus

Quote from: Workload on November 18, 2013, 12:31:26 AM
Hey Galileus does this sound ok to add to your list.     What about a command that tells units with any guns but snipers, To move and shoot at the same time but really slow and if they walk into cover they will stop till given that order again. This can help as well to get up close without running into gun fire till there right next to you.

I much more like the idea of using covering fire and suppression to control movement on battlefield :) Could be an interesting idea for a perk, tho!

As for criticism I guess the aim modes could be a bit much for micromanagement.

Actually aim modes are the important part. Firing modes I can give up, but aiming modes give a lot of control and elasticity on the battlefield. Being able to speed up shots while suffering accuracy and vice versa is a big deal!

And 1 problem with Suppression fire it might trap someone behind a wall and they will stop shooting cause they can't see him and they move out of there cover, after a set time to find new targets

Suppression fire and covering fire don't stop enemies from shooting. While pinned down they will still be able to get out quite good shots, just unable to move safely. And covering fire shouldn't last all that long (till reload, I guess!) - the idea with covering fire is that two guys do it, while to others rush to new position. Switch and repeat. Normally it's a huge part of any controlled retreat, but I'm not quite sure how to translate that exact part into game mechanics.


For everything else seems good would be fun to have more complex combat. People might find it hard that the AI can pick orders really fast and move everyone at once and be able to use your system on you, Tho you do have pause but this could make battles very long. Don't get me wrong I love when the combat gets crazy and you have to flank them to win, Unless you funnel but I don't do that.

Oh, it would be great if AI would get beastly with this system! Less raiders, but more intelligent one and being able to pull out all kinds of stunts at you!


Quote from: Littlemule on November 18, 2013, 01:18:08 AM
If one of you're colonists was pinned down with suppresion fire you could break suppression fire with covering fire

Actually, best way to break enemy suppression fire is to either flank them with team B or a sniper ;) But being able to use covering fire to counter suppression is a neat thing

I think being able to flank the raiders would add an interesting mechanic to the combat too by adding that fear element to the raiders by being surrounded.

Flanks attacks are big on tactical immersion, but I'm simply not sure how to properly implement them. Maybe it's just me, but every idea I come up with ends up with a bunch of holes and problems.

Quote from: Pendryn on November 18, 2013, 04:20:49 AM
First, rather than a sprint command, it could be defaulted that if a target is actively moving around, the accuracy to hit is is drastically reduced. Or maybe that is already a thing, but I doubt it is.

Still leaves you with the snail pace in combat. This definitely needs to be addressed if we are to have any elasticity in combat!

Second, with the ability to switch firing types should come a vast change in reload speeds. Also reloading should be a thing. Right now I assume the wait between shots is really just adjusting for a new shot rather than replenishing ammo.

I believe the reload mechanic is already in there - you get the basic -between shots- lag and then a longer one on reload. But I might be remembering that wrong. Anyhow, this is a great balancing mechanic here for firing types - with a bit longer reloads burning through your ammo quick and with no accuracy could lead up to your guy being caught with his pants down

murlocdummy

Your grammar is horrible, but your ideas are fantastic, lol.

In reading your ideas, I couldn't help but imagine it being an implementation of the Company of Heroes system of suppression and movement into a tile-based tactical format.  Also, the use of firing modes and aiming settings is quite reminiscent of X-COM or maybe even Fallout Tactics' use of crouching and prone positions.  The micromanagement aspect of it shouldn't be too much of an issue if balanced properly.  At the same time, however, if it's properly balanced to the point that players can simply set it and forget it, there might be some individuals that would argue that it would no longer be necessary.

I always enjoy options in my gameplay, so long as the options aren't always necessary in order to play the game, or are otherwise not blatantly in the way of whatever it is I'm trying to do.  Personally, I'd have a bunch of my colonists set up as snap shot sniper riflers and aiming shotgunners just for the lulz.

Workload

Opps I put Aim modes instead of firing modes my bad haha. :P
As for everything else you clear that up :)

Suppression fire
Umm not hating but wouldn't it be odd for you guys to be unable to move deeper into cover or entering buildings.
Also I feel dumb asking this but could you give a little more detail on Suppression. Like is it a command or just a debuff kinda thing when getting shot at and what happens if 2 people are shooting at each other, would they be suppression each other? or you just need 2 or more people for suppression to work.   

Again love this post. Would feel like playing Jagged Alliance combat again and that would be really fun.

Galileus

Quote from: murlocdummy on November 19, 2013, 12:17:54 AMYour grammar is horrible, but your ideas are fantastic, lol.

My English is on "I know what you mean but WHAT THE HELL DID YOU JUST SAY?" level :P What you get for half assed self learning ;)

Anyway, I do agree on "ability but not necessity" of micromanagement being a big selling point of that system. Most of the time you just set up your default aim and firing modes and it's done. But it also gives you a ton of options for these "holy shit, a wild kamikaze appears!" moments.

Quote from: Workload on November 19, 2013, 01:42:46 AM
Suppression fire
Umm not hating but wouldn't it be odd for you guys to be unable to move deeper into cover or entering buildings.
Also I feel dumb asking this but could you give a little more detail on Suppression. Like is it a command or just a debuff kinda thing when getting shot at and what happens if 2 people are shooting at each other, would they be suppression each other? or you just need 2 or more people for suppression to work.

It is a little vague in that point, isn't it? It can be implemented in many forms, so let's see what we can do!

Basic and simplest implementation would be to provide flat modifiers - it's simply easiest to create that way. So it's slowing down enemies and lowering your accuracy. This would need to be balanced by allowing suppression fire only on certain weapons - namely most assault rifles and LMGs. It should also disable covering fire on target. Being able to counter suppression fire by covering fire is a interesting idea here and something to consider - it would be possible if enemy team has any good accuracy and fast fire weapons (assault rifles, smgs) AND if suppression doesn't come from well defended source (bunker, manned turret). On the other hand, a well defended suppression is an instant sniper magnet.

Now, this also addresses "suppress the suppression" question. If you use another squad to suppress, you block off your target's suppression ability - so you can stop them if they were already doing that. Difference between covering fire and suppression here is also quite visible - you need another squad to suppress a suppressing fire, and can't do it with the one being suppressed. Also, wouldn't work on well-defended nests.

Suppression fire (in contrary to covering fire) could be easily made accumulative. Increase suppressed area around target, further lower it's chance to get out accurate shots... sounds like a good idea to me. Also gives this another option to consider - suppress this target more or more targets?

Another implementation would of course be to implement the movement nerf under suppression. How it would work - it would forbid a suppressed pawn from movement, if the tile he moves next to is not under cover from suppression. This would allow pawns to still freely move around the cover they are in - but not between covers. Not to mention this would do wonders to flush out covering fire - that is used to do exactly that, move between covers freely. Of course pawns could try and make a run for it anyway - go sprinting between covers even under suppression. This could give the guy providing suppression fire a free shoot at them - no aim time, low accuracy, but full salvo. This would also temporarily break his suppression - so again, more options! :)

Incense

Bumping this for the crouch & prone positions. Colonists could be able to kneel and lay down, giving a lower profile and accuracy bonuses, while at the same time making them vulnerable and slower to leave that position.

This would make sandbags more effective cover for crouched troopers, while making both positions possibly hazardous if grenades come into play. Snipers could lay down further away behind some bushes to oversee a faction meet a la Firefly. A possible system of visibility and stealth could come into play. All kinds of fun stuff.

The different accuracy modes suggested by the OP are excellent as well.