How to make wealth and attacks more balanced

[dazhat]

I understand that one of the driving forces behind when you get attacked is the level of wealth of the colony. I think that the outside world should not automatically know how much wealth a colony has. I think it should be possible to hide wealth away so other colonies do not know it is worth attacking you.

Specifically, the outside world (and the wealth value used when the game decides if there should be an attack) would be affected by the following factors:

Would only calculate wealth based on the last time the colony traded or had visitors.

Visitors would only know colony wealth based on what they walked near when they went to the colony. If you have a huge pile of gold locked away in a store room they will never know.

When a colony trades the rest of the world will know how much they were trading.

The rest of the world would work out wealth based on the higher of what was seen by visitors or what was last traded.

What do people think?

[Cryorus]

Good idea, since no one watches you 24/7 right ? RIGHT ? Just kidding, but I realy like the idea of just visible wealth. In a modded colony I tend to hoard over 50k of gold and silver inside a vault deep inside a mountain and the raids/zombie hoards are MASSIVE.

+1

[NoImageAvailable]

Wealth is used as a metric to determine how powerful your colony is. Getting attacked by one guy with a shoddy shiv while your guys are running around with charge rifles and power armor just because you hoard all your gold and silver underground doesn't make for engaging gameplay.

Making it dependent on wealth seen by visitors is even worse because it encourages building underground bunkers and locking visitors in the entry hall, lest they catch a glimpse of your wealth and carry word to the outside world. The last thing Rimworld needs is even more reasons for players to dwarf and use cheesy nonsense to trick the AI.

[Cryorus]

Thats why he said that your wealth updates when you trade.
If you have high wealth and uased all your gold/silver or anything on crafting or lost it trough a mechanoid attack, well good luck fighting of a massive hoard of pirates with a damaged ons poor colony.

[hector212121]

I agree on one condition.

Wealth is split into three categories:"Hard" wealth(coinage, metals, basically anything that doesn't decay), 'Traded' wealth(Things that you can't get without buying) and "Labor" wealth(Devilstrand, Art, crafted weapons, basically anything that you need colonists for).

If Labor exceeds Hard and Traded wealth, then instead of being assaulted, you'll get demands for 10% of your Labor wealth produced since the last request from hostiles.

[NoImageAvailable]

Thats why he said that your wealth updates when you trade.
If you have high wealth and uased all your gold/silver or anything on crafting or lost it trough a mechanoid attack, well good luck fighting of a massive hoard of pirates with a damaged ons poor colony.

And what does that do for gameplay? For one, it makes the value lag behind the current reality, meaning if you've gained additional wealth since your last trade the raids will be underpowered, if you've lost wealth they're overpowered. If you neither gained nor lost significant amounts of wealth it is no different from the current system.

So why should the current system be replaced with one that is at best identical, at worst completely unbalanced? Not to mention that it would open up a slew of exploits regarding deliberately avoiding traders in order to keep raid sizes down.

[hector212121]

Toss in Suspicion.

If you refuse to trade for a year or longer, pirates begin thinking you struck some kind of motherlode and drop 12-20 pirates on your base. With rocket launchers.

[NoImageAvailable]

Toss in Suspicion.

If you refuse to trade for a year or longer, pirates begin thinking you struck some kind of motherlode and drop 12-20 pirates on your base. With rocket launchers.

So now we have an arbitrary and poorly balanced mechanic to prevent exploiting the already poorly balanced mechanic? I ask again, why should we replace the current system with one that is objectively worse?

[Cryorus]

Balanced ? now ? Our system is by far not balanced. It happened more than once that i earned huge amounts of silver and boosted my colonys wealth but couldnt spend it. After that i got annihilated by sieges.
The all knowing wealth system is not very well balanced.
Maybe we just have to take a different approach ?  Maybe count the resource wealth 1:1 if it is inside a beacons range and maybe at a lower rate if not ?

[Darth Fool]

How about we replace it with one that is objectively better?

I think that having a model for what each faction knows about your colony is an excellent idea.  Topics of interest to potential raiders would be:
1) Easily accessible wealth.
2) Hard wealth (furniture, buildings, etc...)
3) Technology level
4) Number of colonists
5) Defenses

These could be updated by a variety of sources.  Visitors and traders as previously suggested.  Scouting parties would be another. The results of a previous raid would be best of all.  Imagine two scenarios, one where a raid happens and you kill/capture all the raiders.  A second raid where some get away.  In the first case, the raiding group would significantly raise its evaluation of your defensive readiness, while in the second case, it would be updated by what the raiding party had seen before fleeing. 

If tied into the diplomacy system raids and diplomacy could feel much more organic.  Your actions would have consequences beyond just the total wealth on the map.  Let that raider get away and he will tell his friends about what he saw.  Stop him from getting away and they may fear you enough to stop attacking you.
Or, let him get away to spread the tale of the piles of bodies in front of your door.

Whether it is poorly balanced or not will depend on the balancing of it probably dependent upon the storyteller, but a mechanic that is assuredly not arbitrary.  All that, and having the Spy event come back with meaning.  Clearly objectively better.

;P

[dazhat]

How about we replace it with one that is objectively better?

I think that having a model for what each faction knows about your colony is an excellent idea.  Topics of interest to potential raiders would be:
1) Easily accessible wealth.
2) Hard wealth (furniture, buildings, etc...)
3) Technology level
4) Number of colonists
5) Defenses

;P

yes I agree. in general how a colony is treated should be based on the perception by other settlements.

I think whether or not there is an attack should be a risk/reward calculation. eg, there is not point attacking a poor well defended place but a rich colony with no guns should be easy pickings. I think being able to conceal wealth would be a good game mechanic  (its what I would do in the survivors situation) and could become part of a diplomacy mechanic in the long run.

I also think it is a bit silly in the current game that if you are lucky and mine lots of gold in the first week then you get bigger attacks even if nobody could have known about your mine.

[Johnny Masters]

I think that independent of secondary formulas, main factor should be number of colonists (or colonists seen) and their equipped weaponry  or armor. No real use of wealth (despite calling for reinforcements) or lots of guns if there are no people to use/wear it.

[Cryorus]

How about we replace it with one that is objectively better?

I think that having a model for what each faction knows about your colony is an excellent idea.  Topics of interest to potential raiders would be:
1) Easily accessible wealth.
2) Hard wealth (furniture, buildings, etc...)
3) Technology level
4) Number of colonists
5) Defenses

These could be updated by a variety of sources.  Visitors and traders as previously suggested.  Scouting parties would be another. The results of a previous raid would be best of all.  Imagine two scenarios, one where a raid happens and you kill/capture all the raiders.  A second raid where some get away.  In the first case, the raiding group would significantly raise its evaluation of your defensive readiness, while in the second case, it would be updated by what the raiding party had seen before fleeing. 

If tied into the diplomacy system raids and diplomacy could feel much more organic.  Your actions would have consequences beyond just the total wealth on the map.  Let that raider get away and he will tell his friends about what he saw.  Stop him from getting away and they may fear you enough to stop attacking you.
Or, let him get away to spread the tale of the piles of bodies in front of your door.

Whether it is poorly balanced or not will depend on the balancing of it probably dependent upon the storyteller, but a mechanic that is assuredly not arbitrary.  All that, and having the Spy event come back with meaning.  Clearly objectively better.

;P

Thats exactly what i had im mind after reading dazhat's first suggestion.
As it is for now , the wealth system blindly looks at what you have gathered/build. A more fine tuned  systems with aspects like Darth Fool suggested would make the flow of the game feel more natural.

I also think it is a bit silly in the current game that if you are lucky and mine lots of gold in the first week then you get bigger attacks even if nobody could have known about your mine.

Someone who understand my pain :')