[Alpha 11] Sappers. Challenge accepted.

[Keychan]

Well we know that sappers use explosives, as in grenades, so pirates and hostile Outlander colonies will for sure have them.  Along with no siege capabilities, hostile tribe factions will seem a little 'weaker' or less threatening than their more advance counterparts.  Unless of course raiding tribes have sappers who can only mine, then it would seem a bit more 'balanced'.

[Coenmcj]

I would like to know if sappers are going to be a almost separate unit with bodyguard pawns.  Like if there is a medium-large attack force and the sapper splits off with his/her own little team to break in while the main force knocks on the front door.

There's no plan for a two-pronged attack like that.

Though it's certainly an interesting idea...

Going along with this line of thinking, what of having snipers following a separate AI process? keep them at a distance, send them in first as a sort of scouts? then determining the remaining Force's next action judging off what these scouts encounter?

[UnknownSeeker]

Actually I'm probably going to give them a faction-level knowledge model for traps.

But for turrets? It's a bit odd. The turrets are clearly visible. So they can just peek around the corner, see the turrets, tell all their buddies (by radio or otherwise), and everyone can re-adjust their approach. So I don't think turrets really lend themselves to a knowledge model; I'll probably ignore it for this.

Knowledge modeling enemies is very tricky in games; it's hard to communicate to the player what the enemy knows in a smooth, intuitive, non-disruptive, non-distracting way.

I would assume you would add something like the beauty score on the map for each fraction but have the score based on how many that faction died in specific spots (and how recently they died) and then use that for you pathing cost equation. This way future raiders of that faction would avoid that spots on there path were a large group of there people died. Though ideally if you had killed off the whole raiding party and no one escaped then that would not be added to the fraction pathing cost map.

I can understand them peaking around corners (maybe they have cameras, drones, or satellite images) but if there is a door there and a roof on the building then they should not be able to tell or calculate inner walls or turrets. For the image that Skissor provided the raiders should not know that the east bedroom wall is the wall they want to attack. They should not know that the north and south walls are double walls so they should not be able to take that into there calculations. And while going through two walls may be slightly more expensive to them (actually once they go through the first wall they will be safer because they wont be attacked in between the two walls) the lack of predictability will make them much more interesting.

And while it may be hard for people in the beginning to now exactly what the enemy will do once a winning strategy is found someone will post it to the forums and then the help files and then the wiki and everyone will know. If purposely creating a weak spot in your wall so that you always know where sappers will come through then people will do that.

This seems like playing against a cheating know it all AI. If I make a base that is not exposed to the sky then the AI should not be able to path find to any point that is not visible to the outside or that has not been previously scouted by the current raiding party ... snip ...

The AI does not need to cheat to implement an avoid death trap kill box.

See turrets, change path, to wall along side, destroy first block, re evaluate, did it open a path, or is there more blocks to be destroyed?  evaluate, again.

We have total vision of who is attacking, what they are carrying for weapons, and get to see their line of approach. Are we not the ones cheating?

You are right they shouldn't need to cheat to avoid a death trap.

Agree as long as they can see it however they should not be able to see through buildings that have roofs and doors.

Your right we do have total vision of most things outside... (Though we don't have vision of things outside in a mountain even if it is open to the sky...) And I am not fighting against the AI raiding parties having vision of anything outside either. My point simply was that if it is INSIDE the AI raiding parties should not be able to use that in their calculations on their pathing unless they have some how seen it before... though if you change something between raiding parties then they should only know of the last thing they saw and not the new thing you added INDOORS.

On another note fog of war may be an interesting option. Though some consessions would have to be made like hunters would go out and kill animals on their own without pre-selecting them, being able to set up cameras, being able to setup lookout towers, being able to set up patrols, etc

[thetj]

Really looking forward to this! It will make battle much more entertaining.

Right now, I already have 3 different defense systems in place, one fully automatic system designed to weaken the raids (I do not want to defeat them completely, so I am always adjusting the damage it makes), one fully colonist dependent (for when I am feeling brave to risk my beloved colonists), and a principal defense system that is a mixture between turrets and colonists.

It just adds more flavor to the playing experience.

[Headshotkill]

Well in billycop's example, they'd probably approach the left or right edge (where turret coverage is lightest), approach the closest turret and start throwing grenades at it.

In Skissor's example, they'd probably go through the right wall. If they approached from the left they might go through the left parts of the bottom or top walls.

Also I'm amused your colonists are named Max and Min :p

Will this expaned risk-analysis AI be added to all pawns in a raid?
Or will tribal warriors still charge like madmen, which is kinda realistic I guess...

I hope not only the sapper will be a bit more cautious in the future but any "modern era" pawn would think twice before doing something.

[keylocke]

sappers and bows that can shoot through unroofed areas?

hells yes. bring it on! mwahahaha! 

[Turps]

Hells yeah bring it on!!

Could we see this type of attack with mechs? Like introducing a new tunnelling mech or one that pukes grenades or maybe even a suicidal mech which blows walls or even kill boxes??

[Ramsis]

Okay Tynan, I'm going to pool all the power of the community on this one and try to tell you via mass-telepathy what everyone in this thread is thinking as well as those reading the daily changelog.....


ADD EMBRASURES ALREADY! You always dance around it, we all mod it back into the game, you can't deny our love for literally old medieval defense systems! We're getting to that point where life risking is going to have to happen to survive, it's about time we get some means of better defending our homies.

Something something will throw money at you if we get them this update. On the flipside, let the enemy be able to build up embrasures when they go to attack.

[Listy]

ADD EMBRASURES ALREADY! You always dance around it, we all mod it back into the game, you can't deny our love for literally old medieval defense systems! We're getting to that point where life risking is going to have to happen to survive, it's about time we get some means of better defending our homies.

I've been asking about this for some time, and the loss of barricade ability (IE: something impassable but we can shoot over). The general response was "no" I fear.

[Adamiks]

I've been asking about this for some time, and the loss of barricade ability (IE: something impassable but we can shoot over). The general response was "no" I fear.

Good point. If Tynan removed "barricades" then i don't think he will add embrasures.

[Ramsis]

I've been asking about this for some time, and the loss of barricade ability (IE: something impassable but we can shoot over). The general response was "no" I fear.

Good point. If Tynan removed "barricades" then i don't think he will add embrasures.

Guess we'll possibly be stuck modding it back in, but honestly if he adds it then we'll have logic for the AI on how to fight against it or counter it.

[TLHeart]

first attack, the enemy will get slaughters, as they don't really know the trap. But since they will flee an exploding turret, we should be able to capture more new recruits. 

next attack, they will avoid rushing into the trap, and attempt to find another way in, avoiding the embrasures you built last time. 

Now I have NOT seen in Tynans comments, anything about them attacking unprotected power generation... that should be their top priority. Then there is no rush to zerg attack, just starve the colony out... 

I look forward to this change. I don't build the auto kill boxes anyway. I do build defensible positions, and use cover. Buildings, doorways, trees, rocks, swamps, mud, water....

[Adamiks]

first attack, the enemy will get slaughters, as they don't really know the trap. But since they will flee an exploding turret, we should be able to capture more new recruits. 

next attack, they will avoid rushing into the trap, and attempt to find another way in, avoiding the embrasures you built last time. 

Now I have NOT seen in Tynans comments, anything about them attacking unprotected power generation... that should be their top priority. Then there is no rush to zerg attack, just starve the colony out... 

I look forward to this change. I don't build the auto kill boxes anyway. I do build defensible positions, and use cover. Buildings, doorways, trees, rocks, swamps, mud, water....

I'm not really sure if some constructions like this are killboxes. Anyway i always build defences in this style. By the way - screenshot from alpha 9.

[Rahjital]

That's most definitely a killbox, Adamiks. But the fun thing is, in Alpha 11 raiders would simply break through the bottom wall need the steam geyser and avoid your turrets completely!

[BetaSpectre]

Pawns IMO should have a "Line of sight"
Boxed in turrets behind walls AND Roofs shouldn't be seen by tribals (maybe pirates) Especially if covered by an automatic door.

Pirates might have scanning equipment that can detect threats but Tribals won't have that.

I like that Tynan is adding more into raids to counter player strategies xD!