[Alpha 11] Sappers. Challenge accepted.

[GiskardCZ]

I would say killboxes are definitely valid strategy. Heck I spent quite some time figuring out most effective layout in my earlier colonies. .... BUT! When, over the time, I managed to build like 4-5 virtually impenetrable fortresses in a row, lategame quickly became boring.

So right now I am trying "no single entrance" approach. At the very least, that way its not possible to rely only on turrets.
Still little success thou. Last colony crumbled after collecting too many injuries and most tasks grinded down to crawl. Almost every one in colony had wooden leg or arm :-D
Well, several colonists had one from the start. I just love crash landing mod 
I guess I still need to learn more

My question is if you put turrets field of fire covering all walls around the base what will the sapper do? just give up or pick a random spot or run circles around the base?

Hmm, my experience with that approach is, that it is definitely possible, but very very costly.
I think sappers bodyguards would be able to destroy some turrets at least.
After all one of the reasons to build kill box is to defeat attackers, while incuring as little damage as possible.
Every time you lose a turret, cost in steel and time piles up.

[b0rsuk]

This seems like playing against a cheating know it all AI.

Don't underestimate spies, visitors and gossip.

[beast_Spectre]

What are the thought on the PLAYERS line of sight, why should we know exactly what is going out side of our fortifications.  I am not sure if this is a good idea and it could probably remove the fun element, so I am probably for leaving it as is. I just wanted this as a counter argument for the AI is cheating how dare they know stuff they shouldn't.

Also Tynans comment on it never being a fair math is true it's not, good analysis.

If we don't have technology like drones or satellites. I know windows is an issue. I am all for barricades and cover, but hate the idea people can't climb over stuff to gain entrance so I'm against total block able terrain, except for arrow slits which should have a tiny field of vision.

I am for the changes include the AI not having full knowledge of the base, if there were too predictable we could easily build easy entrance trap rooms, so I'm for some randomisation to stop us being able to math it all out.

[b0rsuk]

I'll take an AI that's gives me a challenge but knows everything over a fair idiot.

[Toggle]

I'd think mountain bases are about to get a lot more worth it, people are gonna make very wide walls, and castle walls might be in business(Giant wall surrounding base from far away). Make based walled in, construct wires across the entire box insides walls, put turrets around it. Wall in base at turrets near max range, if they try to attack boom. Switches are your friends too, because the electricity, and the steel though...

[TLHeart]

Nothing a programmer can do to stop people from building mountain bases. Tynan can make them more difficult to maintain, to keep the colonists happy, but some players prefer to build that type of colony, with the 1 tile entrance, with very heavy defenses.

It is a viable strategy, and even if you as a player think it is wrong, that is your opinion, and does not give you the right to force people to change the way they play the game tynan allows.

I have played the massive kill box games. I learned.

I now play the open base layout, but I still have my kill zones, and it is quite easy since now the AI attacks multiple things, instead of rushing a turret. Easier to pick off 1 or 2, move down the street, pick off another couple.... then my melee crew comes in from behind and finishes them off... and I get 5 to 8 prisoners per raid...

Automated kill box gives so few survivors.

And no matter what tynan does with the AI, we as humans will out think it and find the weaknesses, and exploit those weaknesses.

[Adamiks]

And no matter what tynan does with the AI, we as humans will out think it and find the weaknesses, and exploit those weaknesses.

This is why we (humans) are here, in our houses writing some comments into steel boxes and this boxes will send this to another steel boxes, to another humans writing some comments. So yes, if in game people can build walls and turrets there always will be killboxes, no matter what Tynan will do.

[Kegereneku]

Beware, in many game you can only beat AI, even fair because the developers let you.

No one can out dance Zorba

[RickyMartini]

Sigh, here we go again, if you want to discuss killboxes, read this thread here. Basically, the same arguments are made over and over again. Some say killboxes are natural and other say it's an exploit, it always sparks a debate.

I'm more interested in how the new RaidStrategyDefs look like and if that opens up new ideas for mods.

[deslona]

My understanding of this is that the AI will remember areas as a kind of no-go based on deaths and turrets. So what happens if I start my base with a simple kill box, once the hostile factions cease to use that method of entry I add several others at varying points across my base and convert the old one to storage (since they wont use it anymore) while leaving the door open and a few turrets just in case. Will there be a point where the AI refuses to go to into my base because (in a long game) I have at some point changes the entire outside into a death trap at some point or another?

[billycop32]

My understanding of this is that the AI will remember areas as a kind of no-go based on deaths and turrets. So what happens if I start my base with a simple kill box, once the hostile factions cease to use that method of entry I add several others at varying points across my base and convert the old one to storage (since they wont use it anymore) while leaving the door open and a few turrets just in case. Will there be a point where the AI refuses to go to into my base because (in a long game) I have at some point changes the entire outside into a death trap at some point or another?

you could add a decay rate for no-go zones. after X time they will test it again.

[Adamiks]

My understanding of this is that the AI will remember areas as a kind of no-go based on deaths and turrets. So what happens if I start my base with a simple kill box, once the hostile factions cease to use that method of entry I add several others at varying points across my base and convert the old one to storage (since they wont use it anymore) while leaving the door open and a few turrets just in case. Will there be a point where the AI refuses to go to into my base because (in a long game) I have at some point changes the entire outside into a death trap at some point or another?

I think there will be zones with X danger. If your base will be covered turrets (literally all walls outside) with that same "placing system" (even there where is entrance) then i think they just would attack anywhere, because ALL path leading to your base would have X danger.

[RickyMartini]

I think there will be zones with X danger. If your base will be covered turrets (literally all walls outside) with that same "placing system" (even there where is entrance) then i think they just would attack anywhere, because ALL path leading to your base would have X danger.

But the dev also said that raiders will count overlapping turret zones so there still more to it than just "no danger" "x danger".

[Xanting]

I personally think that killboxes are a perfectly valid strategy, it is basically a natural progression from the player reacting to the ai and developing a strategy to counter this threat. However I also think the ai should be a lot more smarter in how it assaults the colony and sappers give an additional complexity to this threat that the player has to deal with. Another thing is that currently large groups of melee raiders are extremely dangerous as they can stack together into a single tile and combined they deal a significant amount of dps with the only really reliable way is to deal with this deathstack is with overwhelming firepower. With the introduction of sapper teams I really do hope that they split off from the main group for a two sided attack which would also hopefully solve this deathstacking problem.

I dont really use killboxes myself, or at least i dont find myself using more turrets then I have colonists, I usually used them to soak up damage from the deathstacks of melee enemies and to distract the shooting ones so that i can flank them or return fire without risking one of my colonists getting shot, after all its much easier to rebuild a half dozen destroyed turrets then it is to replace a shot off limb, organ or dead colonist.

[Listy]

Something just occurred to me..

Tynan has been spying on my brain!
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12013.0