Auto avoid enemies

Started by Stealth, May 24, 2015, 06:59:45 PM

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TLHeart

Quote from: Adamiks on May 27, 2015, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: TLHeart on May 26, 2015, 07:18:10 PM
a zone that you set as forbidden,  is not going to work as everyone in this thread thinks it will.... pathing is the most intensive cpu use in a video game... currently, the pawns, select a job, calculate the path, and that is it. The path is not recalculated until they reach their destination, or are blocked from reaching their destination. Tynan has stated that for alpha 11, they will be interrupting their current task to check their status's. He did not say how often.

Until the pawn hits that interrupt state, which we force now with a recruit, unrecruit, they will still walk into the danger zone you have set.

And for tynan to spend programming and debug time to something that is not really needed in the game, is a waste of resources.

The ability to already create your own danger zones exist, it just is NOT handled by the AI.

And then we will get all the complaints that it does not work, as my pawn still walked into the line of fire.....

Because you play like "pro" this means that Tynan shouldn't improve AI? And i don't think you understand how AI of colonists really works. Do colonists walking through walls? No, so this zone would works like normal walls and this wouldn't be hard to make. Example? Unfinished walls, but with resources. They works like normal walls (they are impassable), but they aren't finished.

I understand how the pathing works, and doesn't work. And a danger zone will NOT protect your pawns from being sniped by the enemy, unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy....and is updated every step the pawn takes, and every step the enemy takes, and that will overwhelm many processors.

And for the wall type idea to work, you are still going to have to pause the game, draw the wall, draft and undraft all pawns, so that they recognize the changes, and don't walk within sniper distance, and hope the enemy stays within the wall you drew... all to keep a pawn of two from walking into the area for a very short time.

Civilians, ie non military pawns, do stupid things, danger is not their concern, their concern is getting their job done, the job YOU have told them to do.

And tynan has changed the AI code so that when a pawn gets injured, that interrupts the current job tasks. Will have to see what that change does.

Adamiks

Quote from: TLHeart on May 27, 2015, 12:00:52 PM
I understand how the pathing works, and doesn't work. And a danger zone will NOT protect your pawns from being sniped by the enemy, unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy....and is updated every step the pawn takes, and every step the enemy takes, and that will overwhelm many processors.

And for the wall type idea to work, you are still going to have to pause the game, draw the wall, draft and undraft all pawns, so that they recognize the changes, and don't walk within sniper distance, and hope the enemy stays within the wall you drew... all to keep a pawn of two from walking into the area for a very short time.

Civilians, ie non military pawns, do stupid things, danger is not their concern, their concern is getting their job done, the job YOU have told them to do.

And tynan has changed the AI code so that when a pawn gets injured, that interrupts the current job tasks. Will have to see what that change does.
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"I understand how the pathing works, and doesn't work. And a danger zone will NOT protect your pawns from being sniped by the enemy, unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy....and is updated every step the pawn takes, and every step the enemy takes, and that will overwhelm many processors."

Next example. Colonists want to "escape" from your base. Other colonists is building a wall. Wall finished = colonist that want to go out DON'T GO TO THE WALL he just stop moving. If danger zone would work like walls = same result.
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"unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy"

Oh, so you think that AI SHOULD PLAY FOR YOU?
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"and every step the enemy takes"

Danger zone will can affect only ColonistDef PawnKindDef (or Colony in general). Example? Stockpiles. Player stockpile NOT = enemies stockpile.
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"And for the wall type idea to work, you are still going to have to pause the game, draw the wall, draft and undraft all pawns, so that they recognize the changes, and don't walk within sniper distance, and hope the enemy stays within the wall you drew... all to keep a pawn of two from walking into the area for a very short time."

So again you think that AI SHOULD PLAY FOR YOU? Ok. And this wouldn't work like this. Example = fresh wall/door locking. I NEVER had situation when colonists decided to DON'T change his path while i builded a wall/locked door.
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"Civilians, ie non military pawns, do stupid things, danger is not their concern, their concern is getting their job done, the job YOU have told them to do."

Civilians = military pawns in Rimworld. They shouldn't do stupid things and (again) small example. God told you to pick up wooden logs 10m away from you, do you will do this even when 20 mechanoids will try to kill you? Yes? Ok, this is your (short) life.
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If game wants make pawns so fucking stupid these pawns shouldn't be humans (from 5000 year) but cows (cows are smarter than this anyway)!

Play2Jens

Quote from: TLHeart on May 26, 2015, 07:18:10 PM

I understand how the pathing works, and doesn't work. And a danger zone will NOT protect your pawns from being sniped by the enemy, unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy...

First of all, the CPU argument is totally invalid and you just admitted that. Like Adamiks said, locking 50 colonists up in a room is the same and already proofs that this wouldn't slow down the game.

Second, the chance that a sniper will attack your workers is very slim because they will already be aiming at the people you drafted to fight the raid. Even if that would be the case, there is nothing to stop the game from generating a temporary danger zone with a radius of 45 blocks around an enemy equipped with a sniper rifle. I'm not saying that the game should do that, but at least a danger zone between your drafted colonists and a charging raid. This danger zone would be update every few seconds (not even frames, so it wouldn't slow down the frame rate one bit).

Third, I don't know why you say we have to draw a wall? the walls are already there. A lot of players build walls around their colony, you know? Other players build their base inside a mountain or surrounded by mountains, bit it will still be the same concept. Remember, the 'danger zone' is a temporary zone that will be generated automatically by the game engine itself, and not drawn by the player himself.

Fourth. It is correct that every job is given by the player. But the way your colonists does it, isn't up to the player. The AI/game decides that. You just don't get this suggestion because you never needed an impassable danger zone for you undrafted colonists. But there are tons of people out there with different play styles who could have a huge benefit from this.

RickyMartini

I feel like this should be a tryout for a mod. This way many arguments could be debunked regarding general gameplay or related problems.

Stealth

#34
Quote from: TLHeart on May 27, 2015, 12:00:52 PM

I understand how the pathing works, and doesn't work. And a danger zone will NOT protect your pawns from being sniped by the enemy, unless that danger zone covers 45 cells away from every enemy....and is updated every step the pawn takes, and every step the enemy takes, and that will overwhelm many processors.

And for the wall type idea to work, you are still going to have to pause the game, draw the wall, draft and undraft all pawns, so that they recognize the changes, and don't walk within sniper distance, and hope the enemy stays within the wall you drew... all to keep a pawn of two from walking into the area for a very short time.

Civilians, ie non military pawns, do stupid things, danger is not their concern, their concern is getting their job done, the job YOU have told them to do.

And tynan has changed the AI code so that when a pawn gets injured, that interrupts the current job tasks. Will have to see what that change does.

IDK why you keep talking about steps. Stop using strawman to win your arguments. It's no different than setting a home region and a stockpile... set a big box that you want them to stay away from and boom problem solved. I'm not talking about raids and sieges. Those are easily dealt with and they go to your base so you have to fight. I'm talking when a ship crashes and you have to fight 3 centipedes and 2 of the sniper mechs with 7 colonists. They don't head straight to your base, rather they camp around the ship. While I slowly take care of them over the course of a few days with my snipers, I don't want the working colonists to go there. IDK why this concept is so hard for you to understand. Nothing needs to be recalculated. Unless you have a cpu from the early 90's, your cpu should be able to acknowledge a no-go zone as if it were walled off (like it already does and has been stated by several others).

You keep saying that they do the job we tell them to do yet we have no control over their direct movements. There's things to haul all over the map and they scatter in all directions to go get it. Instead of forbidding everything in an area, removing stockpiles, home regions etc, it would be a lot easy to just place a single restricted zone...

Kegereneku

#35
To all Rimmers, I would like to point out there is getting too much passive aggressive implication here, when not straight personal attack.

To defuse it I suggest to simply say in as few words as possible what you really want/accept.
For me :
- a player-controlled way of keeping non-drafted pawn safe.
- Pawn that go back to base/infirmary if hit seriously threatening injury.
- Pawn that DON'T fear going near enemy if player consider they shouldn't.
- a solution that make pawn run in loop because the enemy is where their job is.

Then we can work an idea that satisfy as many as possible.

Now, if you excuse me...
Quote from: akiceabear on May 26, 2015, 06:31:19 PM

  • I like the idea of a manually set/toggled forbidden zone and/or forced gather point, similar to what is described by Frankenbeasley.
  • I find it curious that those most opposed to fog of war (because they fear it would introduce micromanagement) are also opposed to this idea, because it would reduce micromanagement!
  • To those opposing the concept - would you also fully oppose an optional tool?

Oh please, don't play the "victim who is denied a cheap optional feature", FoW is a game changer and would require careful balance even if it was 'optional'. You should know it by now.

On subject : "because it reduce micromanagement" is certainly not a reason I get out of my or TLHeart's criticism. Please don't make up Strawman argument.

Our point of disagreement is that such automation make less likely for pawn to react in a way the players' intended (including avoiding enemy and staying safe), leading to more micromanagement as we try to make up for AI unpredictable behavior.

Lastly, I suggested a 'Forbidden/don't-cross zone' that you could auto-center upon entity if you wish and can double-use as work-zone or even (as I imagine it) corridor.
That's nine hells more optional than some other suggestions.

Quote from: Stealth on May 27, 2015, 02:15:54 AM

I didn't say i have 1000 things queued up. Im talking when they're auto doing their jobs, they go off and do whatever. When an attack comes i don't just draft everyone. I have people taking care of things. If you don't want the feature then feel free to post elsewhere. IDK why you feel that If YOU don't want a feature it can't be in the game. The game isn't made for YOU. Sorry, but you're not special.

Also, when i said sniped it's not some dramatic story, my colonists literally got sniped and downed in one shot...

Sorry, but to me you are the one acting like an entitled person.

I understand your problem, even if I don't share your method of dealing with it.
But we pointed a few potential flaws with the original suggestion.
So here you are the one telling me/us we should give up features we already have because you want yours.


Nothing else (edit : for me) to say on the topic if it don't concern a solution that satisfy everybody.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

Play2Jens

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 28, 2015, 06:22:28 AM
To all Rimmers, I would like to point out there is getting too much passive aggressive implication here, ...

You might be right. Let's just settle this by rational arguments. I perfectly get why you are opting for a player controlled 'forbidden zone'. It makes sense because you still want your undrafted colonists to put out fires and repair stuff.

In my opinion there still is a problem here. Case 1: Imagine if you've a designated hauler and you have you colony entrances blocked by 'forbidden zones'. He would probably be cleaning at the moment because he's out of hauling jobs. Suddenly, an alpha 11 wall gets breached by a sapper raid. The first thing he would do is run through this (unforbidden) hole and do hauling jobs outside of the colony. Same goes with hunters.

Case 2: Imagine you want to hunt. you have to to remove the 'forbidden zone' every time you want your colonists to leave the colony, adding much more micromanagement.

I wanted to state that I didn't want to attack anyone personally, I just thought there were a lot of irrational arguments by other players beside you. I don't care what the final outcome will be, I just hope there will come such a future in the game and that it will be optional so everyone will be kept happy. As I see it, this doesn't change the perspective of the game, and FoW indeed does.



Kegereneku

Here is a suggested solution to our conundrum, it is made of idea I gathered around, like this one
Quote
Talking of zone, we know a zone that accept/deny item in it : Stockpile. So the difference between a 'Safe zone' and a 'Forbidden zone' might be a mere checked case away. It could eventually fuse with the concept of "workzone".
In short :
- you created a zone (on a different layer like home-region), which "accept nobody". That would be our 'forbidden zone', ideally it forbid any path or job to be created/stay in it.
- it is fixed, but making a dynamically moving zone around a raider should still be feasible (after all the pawn recognize their combat range), UI-speaking it could appear on raider like the "create zone" around trading beacon, but moving.)
- Next : What if you could change the zone into "Safe/workzone" which would force selected colonist (not drafted) to go in it and never leave it. That would be your safe zone, you activate it just by selecting a pre-made zone, change it from "neutral" into "safe".

note : So far I only see a limitation with overlapping and making contiguous zone. which could require an UI that isn't one we are used to. But if we can at least get a basic "safe zone"

If it can inspire any of us.

Quote from: Play2Jens on May 28, 2015, 08:13:08 AM
In my opinion there still is a problem here. Case 1: Imagine if you've a designated hauler and you have you colony entrances blocked by 'forbidden zones'. He would probably be cleaning at the moment because he's out of hauling jobs. Suddenly, an alpha 11 wall gets breached by a sapper raid. The first thing he would do is run through this (unforbidden) hole and do hauling jobs outside of the colony. Same goes with hunters.

Case 2: Imagine you want to hunt. you have to to remove the 'forbidden zone' every time you want your colonists to leave the colony, adding much more micromanagement.

Case 1 : Baring the idea above, I see no reason you couldn't extend the forbidden zone over the wall like a continuous immaterial wall.
Other way I think the idea above could give you at least a possibility. Maybe Home-Region could be (as suggested before) turned by a click into "must go into" zone for your undrafted colonist.

Case 2 : To be sincere, I don't see why you would forbid all the time everybody to go outside. And even then, erasing one authorized place don't seem to hard.
Still again, being able to define as a whole if the selected zone is authorized or not could be our solution.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

Adamiks

#38
"a player-controlled way of keeping non-drafted pawn safe."
Danger zone is the best solution.

"Pawn that go back to base/infirmary if hit seriously threatening injury."
Alpha 11 for this.

"Pawn that DON'T fear going near enemy if player consider they shouldn't."
Danger zone is the best for this - they don't fear going nera enemy + player decision.

"a solution that make pawn run in loop because the enemy is where their job is."
Danger zone.

Quote from: Play2Jens on May 28, 2015, 08:13:08 AM
In my opinion there still is a problem here. Case 1: Imagine if you've a designated hauler and you have you colony entrances blocked by 'forbidden zones'. He would probably be cleaning at the moment because he's out of hauling jobs. Suddenly, an alpha 11 wall gets breached by a sapper raid. The first thing he would do is run through this (unforbidden) hole and do hauling jobs outside of the colony. Same goes with hunters.

Case 2: Imagine you want to hunt. you have to to remove the 'forbidden zone' every time you want your colonists to leave the colony, adding much more micromanagement.

Case 1 - i think the better option is to just select range of raiders/mechanoids guns as danger zone, so everybody will can do his job and be safe (of course you'll think about ranges etc - AI isn't playing for you).

Case 2 - Everything in Case 1.

And sorry for being little aggresive, but when someone is telling me that colonists going into the enemies camps is my fault, because i can't tell them what they SHOULDN'T do is just.... bullshit.

Play2Jens

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 28, 2015, 09:42:07 AM
Case 2 : To be sincere, I don't see why you would forbid all the time everybody to go outside. And even then, erasing one authorized place don't seem to hard.
Still again, being able to define as a whole if the selected zone is authorized or not could be our solution.
This works the other way around as well. If you never forbid anything, but only when you get attacked, you have to add a 'forbidden zone' every time there is a threat AND remove it afterwards.

I would guess that half of the players wouldn't mind the extra micromanagement. But the other half, players like Stealth, Adamiks and me, do mind. I lost too many colonists because I forgot to forbid resources or deselect mining areas outside of my colony because I was too focused on fighting a raid or another threat.

That's why I'm still opting for an automated danger zone which can be toggled. Then, everyone will be happy.

Adamiks

Actually i don't mind the extra mcromanagement.

Select danger zone -> Remove danger zone. This can't be easier (and more useful)!

On other hand automated danger zone or something like that will create a new bunch of players that will say "Danger zone is so fu***** dumb!11!1!11!!!11" and this who will say "You're fu***** dumb! This is awesome!"

Play2Jens

Quote from: Adamiks on May 28, 2015, 12:49:44 PM
Actually i don't mind the extra mcromanagement.

Okay, so let's agree that a danger zone, automated or not, will be useful for most of us.

TLHeart

I still see no need for a DANGER zone. So I disagree. all in how YOU choose to manage your colonists, and actually understand what they are doing.


I do see for people who play at speed 3, and don't pay attention to what their colonists are doing, would want to be able to restrict whole sections of the map.

Stealth

Quote from: Kegereneku on May 28, 2015, 06:22:28 AM


Sorry, but to me you are the one acting like an entitled person.

I understand your problem, even if I don't share your method of dealing with it.
But we pointed a few potential flaws with the original suggestion.
So here you are the one telling me/us we should give up features we already have because you want yours.


Nothing else (edit : for me) to say on the topic if it don't concern a solution that satisfy everybody.

Ok so requesting a feature is "entitlement" now? Nice use of strawman there to try and win an argument. Saying that you should "give up your features so I can have mine". GJ twisting my words there. Don't come in here acting all self righteous, I never said my idea was flawless but so far there has been lots of suggestions and most of which would work. Where did I say they wouldn't?

Play2Jens

#44
Quote from: TLHeart on May 28, 2015, 02:43:11 PM
I still see no need for a DANGER zone. So I disagree. all in how YOU choose to manage your colonists, and actually understand what they are doing.


I do see for people who play at speed 3, and don't pay attention to what their colonists are doing, would want to be able to restrict whole sections of the map.

It's not because I play at speed 3, but because I have a lot of colonists and do not draft everyone to fight the raid. And because, as stated before, I'm too focused on fighting the raid, that I forgot about that mining expedition I planned a few rim-days earlier. I'm too busy with commanding my fighters at that time. Simple as that. The game gets to complex anno alpha 10 and with more than 12 colonists to look after all the time.

As the option doesn't bring disadvantages to players like you who wouldn't use it, may I know why you oppose this feature so much?

(edited future to feature)