Uncertainty Veil (Fog of War)

[SpaceEatingTrex]

This actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

....

Actually, the FoW system is still in the game, but is only used for undiscovered underground features.

Tynan, I agree with you that have a third person omnipresent perspective on everything is the best setup for storytelling. Like you mentioned, allowing the player to see everything that's going on lets them see events they might have otherwise missed. I'd love to see pirates get attacked by Muffalo in any of my games!

However, if this fog/veil system is already implemented, how much work would it be to make it a toggle at game start? Defaulted to off of course, but I think the option should be available for people who want to use it. It adds more variety to the gameplay for people to experiment with. Also if there are new music and sound effects on the way, appropriate sound cues combined with fog could make for a very suspenseful story indeed.

A way to achieve a similar effect would be to use the Dwarf Fortress method of making thieves/ambushes invisible until discovered, but if the FoW system is already developed it seems easier to just make that optional.

[Jaybanger]

Hello all, been lurking since I backed this on kickstarter but I haven't posted anything yet.

I was thinking in regards to FOW. How about have a sensor style FOW.. let me explain.

So when you start the game, you would have a field of view that is generated by the escape pods etc that you landed in. These would be the sensor that start you off in the game and give you a good amount of vision, however not the entire map. Something large enough that you can see the things that don't happen in your immediate area and and that the player is required to notice to continue the story.

As the game continues you can install further senors that give greater vision, etc. Of course these would be dependent on power, this would allow for more events to take place that may require that the player not see the set up of the characters.

As mentioned before with this method given the pirate raid example, you could see them land and attack the cattle however once that was done maybe they destroy the sensor that covers that area, destroying the players vision forcing them to react to an attack that they cannot see.

Just a suggestion as I believe this would give more immersion into the game, not having a bordered map to look at.

FOW would also be removed by the colonists, if you wanted to you could consider sensor pings for "unknown" etc to make the player investigate the event rather than just task a colonist to collect said event etc.

This could be taken in numerous directions and many different methods however I think I got my point across, and I will stop there.

Anyway, Comments? Thoughts? Doubtful points?

[Tynan]

This actually used to be in the game back in June. I took it out after seeing people get really confused and blindsided by stuff from outside the fog of war.

....

Actually, the FoW system is still in the game, but is only used for undiscovered underground features.

Tynan, I agree with you that have a three person omnipresent perspective on everything is the best setup for storytelling. Like you mentioned, allowing the player to see everything that's going on lets them see events they might have otherwise missed. I'd love to see pirates get attacked by Muffalo in any of my games!

However, if this fog/veil system is already implemented, how much work would it be to make it a toggle at game start? Defaulted to off of course, but I think the option should be available for people who want to use it. It adds more variety to the gameplay for people to experiment with. Also if there are new music and sound effects on the way, appropriate sound cues combined with fog could make for a very suspenseful story indeed.

A way to achieve a similar effect would be to use the Dwarf Fortress method of making thieves/ambushes invisible until discovered, but if the FoW system is already developed it seems easier to just make that optional.

It's a chunk of work to make it function beyond what it does now. The current fog looks like rock - not something you want to layer over the world. There's also no "three-state" fog of totally unknown/seen before/seen currently. Worse, there are performance implications to constantly tracking line of sight from a dozen colonists over the hundreds of squares that each of them can see.

Basically, I could do it, but it would take 4-6 days and I think those days are better put elsewhere. I could make a dozen new kinds of raider groups in that time. Or create a proper stockpile system (DF-style). Or a dozen new buildings. Tradeoffs, ya know?

[British]

Hello all, been lurking since I backed this on kickstarter but I haven't posted anything yet.

I was thinking in regards to FOW. How about have a sensor style FOW.. let me explain.

So when you start the game, you would have a field of view that is generated by the escape pods etc that you landed in. These would be the sensor that start you off in the game and give you a good amount of vision, however not the entire map. Something large enough that you can see the things that don't happen in your immediate area and and that the player is required to notice to continue the story.

As the game continues you can install further senors that give greater vision, etc. Of course these would be dependent on power, this would allow for more events to take place that may require that the player not see the set up of the characters.

As mentioned before with this method given the pirate raid example, you could see them land and attack the cattle however once that was done maybe they destroy the sensor that covers that area, destroying the players vision forcing them to react to an attack that they cannot see.

Just a suggestion as I believe this would give more immersion into the game, not having a bordered map to look at.

FOW would also be removed by the colonists, if you wanted to you could consider sensor pings for "unknown" etc to make the player investigate the event rather than just task a colonist to collect said event etc.

This could be taken in numerous directions and many different methods however I think I got my point across, and I will stop there.

Anyway, Comments? Thoughts? Doubtful points?

Most of it has already been said on the previous page of this very thread, so I'm not sure what to think...

[SpaceEatingTrex]

It's a chunk of work to make it function beyond what it does now. The current fog looks like rock - not something you want to layer over the world. There's also no "three-state" fog of totally unknown/seen before/seen currently. Worse, there are performance implications to constantly tracking line of sight from a dozen colonists over the hundreds of squares that each of them can see.

Basically, I could do it, but it would take 4-6 days and I think those days are better put elsewhere. I could make a dozen new kinds of raider groups in that time. Or create a proper stockpile system (DF-style). Or a dozen new buildings. Tradeoffs, ya know?

Thanks for the explanation, Tynan! More core content is certainly more important than extra features like FoW. And if the FoW was implemented, it should have the extra states and other high-quality elements. Although certainly not necessary now, if other players think the idea has merit it might be something to keep in mind for a future module.

[Zeiph]

It certainly has some merits as some people, including me, may find some fun in it. But if that means having less stuff or lower quality on it, I think there is no place to argue for it, as it may be quite a heavy feature to add as highlighted by Ty, and to balance.

[AspenShadow]

I propose we lock this thread until Alpha comes out after Kickstarter and we can all come back with a fresh perspective? Then we'll also be able to see how far along the game's come from Pre-Alpha and decide whether the extra work aspect of adding UV is worth it.

Seconded?

[Zeiph]

Why not. How about opening a post-pre-alpha topic in order to list what should (or shouldn't) be dicussed at an ulterior time and keep track of the refused/postponed issues? It is not the first topic concerned an probably it won't be the last.

[Dephronia]

I feel like (again) the DF way would be good for this.  You can see everything on the map, however you won't be notified until a dwarf (or person in this case) discovers them. It works surprisingly well, and most of the time I'm too busy working on the fortress to notice those goblins until they come charging in.  However, at the current state of Rimworld it seems like there is generally no dedicated military and you could be killed because of an ambush (then again, Auto turrets could prevent this).  So perhaps use the sensors or turrets to detect whenever something hostile enters the range of it.

[DNK]

Maybe this could be a difficulty option, for example having a checkbox under the narrator to render him omniscient to stick to the uncertainty veil.

This. My philosophy on games is that IF a feature can be toggled with minimal balancing cost, it should be. The developer then just sets the default as he sees fit, but allows the toggle for players who want a different experience.

Since this has already been coded, why not make it toggleable?

[Spike]

Since this has already been coded, why not make it toggleable?

I like options.  I like things that you won't like, and you'll like things that I don't like.  If those things are in the game, and we can toggle the ones we don't like off, that makes us both happy.

Another possibility (feel bad for volunteering more work for Ty  ) would be to tie it into the Storyteller system.  You have a view because part of the crash pod safety system left a satellite up in orbit.  But what if your equipment ground-side linking you to the satellite malfunctions?  Or the smarter pirates jam you before they attack?

[British]

My philosophy on games is that IF a feature can be toggled with minimal balancing cost, it should be. The developer then just sets the default as he sees fit, but allows the toggle for players who want a different experience.

Since this has already been coded, why not make it toggleable?

[AspenShadow]

I'd be with you on that for most of the way except for the common misconception people have picked up that it is

"already coded in the game"

it really isn't and would take a lot of work to bring about. Tynan's already expressed that in a much earlier version FoW did exist but he took it out and it didn't work how people imagine it did as a standard 3-shift FoW but just a blackness across the whole map that made things difficult and reduced the story aspect of the game.

The debate isn't whether to include it anymore, I think everyone agrees that it should be included with a toggle-able setting; since I'd likely want it off for some playthroughs, but whether Tynan should -and is willing to- spend a good deal of time coding it in now when he could be spending the time more productively by adding content that everyone will be using. (Roughly paraphrased his last comment on this thread at the end there)

[huxi]

I'd like to consider this from the opposite point of view...

From what I've seen in one of Blitzkriegslers videos, it seems that the raiders AI has perfect knowledge of the whole map, too. Some raiders took a walk through a long cave so they could attack him from the less perfectly defended back. Generally, this is fine. But I think it would be better if the raiders would need to send scouts to know about a weakness in defense. Those scouts could, in turn, be arrested/killed so they wouldn't be able to return with the information.

This isn't terrible. They could have scanned the area before showing up. Still explainable. But I suppose it would create more story opportunities if complexity is added to this component.

Beside that, I'd also be a friend of sensor beacons that could be deployed over the map. But I don't think that they should require a whole solar array to function. Instead, they should be independent of energy, i.e. they should have their own small solar panel with internal batteries. This would mean that they'd probably fail during eclipse if not connected to optional wires but they'd still be able to perform duty during a normal night.

[British]

From what I've seen in one of Blitzkriegslers videos, it seems that the raiders AI has perfect knowledge of the whole map, too. Some raiders took a walk through a long cave so they could attack him from the less perfectly defended back.

I haven't seen that specific video, but I'd wager it was more about going through the shortest path than the safest one...