AI sees through walls

[NemesisN]

Welcome to anti-Killbox measures...

Easy to rationalize your picture. The Raiders clearly saw that you had a lot of fortification and that going straight would be suicide, so they wanted to build a tunnel that went around it.
Luckily for them, it turn out you had a room here and it didn't took long.

no...they do not go around it....they could dig behind the defense on the mountains behind the open space shown where colony is there is a open field behind those mountains with no defense....but they always dig straight to a hidden room inside the mountain far away from the known location of the colony....how is that building a tunnel when they aim in a completely different direction

[Kegereneku]

Easy to rationalize as well...
When you have to avoid a place ostensibly filled with gun, the logical solution is to give a large leeway, not dig straight around and face the guards stationed close by.
It make more than enough sense.

Listen, you are just mad they didn't go straight at range of your killbox. It was a nice and simple protection before but it could be abused easily.

We KNOW the raider went straight for your room because they "saw it". But as long as it can be rationalized (and it always can, because Rimworld is big on Storytelling) this isn't a problem.
I don't know the full size of your base, but so far I -human- would definitively NOT attack around your wall, knowing the guards will be close. Plus, you actually have a door in that general direction of the base, if I raided would actually dig here as well in the hope of meeting a tunnel leading to the least defended part.
Be happy they can't actually attack by surprise (fog of war) and dig preemptively.

Aside,
As long as you have a door to the outside that visitor can see within the years, the raider will know you are here. Point. HELL, even with basic thermal-camera you can detect any artificial source of heat. And with regular observation, knowing what you trade, it is possible to guess what is inside.
When you have 10 bionics pawns living in a GRANITE mountain, wearing Devilstrand Power-armor with Legendary Sword/Riffle, you ain't looking at an harmless tiny farm.

[NemesisN]

Once again you are missing the point....there is no kill box inside (behind the walls) there is no real defense actually then my colony with rifles....so even if they know what is located behind the walls they  had no reason to avoid digging around it...its just a open field we can do battle instead they decide to go in the hidden room cause fire and destroy everything

also what do you mean they "saw" my room ? How can they see a room hidden inside the walls when I the player can't see the rooms hidden inside the mountains or rooms that are covered with no entrance what is inside it....how is that fair ?

I am not mad you are just making this up now and you are being aggressive and insulting without reason saying that...I would guess that you are the one who is mad because you have a need to insult me

also there is no Combat Droids in the field behind the walls....nobody has devilstrand armor and nobody is armed with legendary weapons.....not to mention your "thermal-camera" explanation which is a made up thing since there is no such thing mentioned in Dev Blog

[NemesisN]

here is another example with the picture

[Adamiks]

Sappers are really bad and not polished. They should know where to dig, but not like that - they just KNOW. No spies etc. they KNOW and will KNOW about new structures, which is fucking really bad. Without spies mechanic sappers are the worst mechanic in the game. This is why i didn't play in Alpha 11 for more than 5 hours on ice sheep (which is pretty easy without Superior Crafting).

I like hardcore games, but i like realistic games which result in hardcore game, but i don't like games that are hard, because there is so many unlogicial mechanics that are hard and they result in heart-breaking. The worst what can happen to player in game is game over due to unlogicial and very annoying mechanic.

Rainbox six vegas for example. On single missions (you choose map and you must kill all enemies), ALL enemies KNOW where you're hiding if you're hiding or playing sneaky game. If player will wait more than 30 secs he will earn a wave of terrorists - this is unlogicial and annoying mechanic like sappers in Rimworld.

[NemesisN]

Sappers are really bad and not polished. They should know where to dig, but not like that - they just KNOW. No spies etc. they KNOW and will KNOW about new structures, which is fucking really bad. Without spies mechanic sappers are the worst mechanic in the game. This is why i didn't play in Alpha 11 for more than 5 hours on ice sheep (which is pretty easy without Superior Crafting).

exactly my point

[xlockeed]

It is the future, maybe they have thermal x ray goggles. They are after all thieves of all things and this is the future. There is also ultra sound devices today that can be used to show pockets / hollow spots underground. Even oil companies have devices that can locate oil. Just add a few thousand years on to technology and there is your reason for pirates knowing where to dig.

Here's a neat trick. Make the mountain areas near the borders mini turret rooms. Have a switch further in the town to flip if they manage to break through. I've also found if you leave about ten clicks of mountain and outside alone they do not dig through it but look for thin spots. One final note, pill boxes scattered around. Lots of them, I like to do 8 turrets in darkness with there own power and batteries. This also helps on drop pod enemies.   

Edit - Maybe Plast walls could act like insulation and prevent this ultra sound locate from happening. Very expensive wall but it doesn't let them know where the base is in mountain / hill.

[JesterBlue]

The way it is now, the enemy will just path straight to a point of your base closest to their spawn point follow a path of least resistant or the straight path for sapper hence they will path straight to your base through the mountain side or any obstacles actually. The current counter measure is to line your base with a 'heat trench' made of good material to skew their calculation.

There are some experiment I'd like to test:
1. The ant line experiment: Predict their digging path and build a wall across it, see if they change direction. (Your pawns are know to not realize path change until they walk face first into the wall)
2. The Cosmetic experiment: Line the rock with wall except for one single tile of raw rock, see if they prioritize the natural rock instead of artificial one.

[Adamiks]

It is the future, maybe they have thermal x ray goggles. They are after all thieves of all things and this is the future. There is also ultra sound devices today that can be used to show pockets / hollow spots underground. Even oil companies have devices that can locate oil. Just add a few thousand years on to technology and there is your reason for pirates knowing where to dig.

Here's a neat trick. Make the mountain areas near the borders mini turret rooms. Have a switch further in the town to flip if they manage to break through. I've also found if you leave about ten clicks of mountain and outside alone they do not dig through it but look for thin spots. One final note, pill boxes scattered around. Lots of them, I like to do 8 turrets in darkness with there own power and batteries. This also helps on drop pod enemies.   

Edit - Maybe Plast walls could act like insulation and prevent this ultra sound locate from happening. Very expensive wall but it doesn't let them know where the base is in mountain / hill.

If AI can use this high tech why players can't? The answer is - because Tynan want to make game unlogicially hard.

[A Friend]

Realistic AI tunneling is srs bisness.

If AI can use this high tech why players can't? The answer is - because Tynan want to make game unlogicially hard.

If players can pause the game then why AI can't?
If players can place turrets why AI sieges can't?
If players can switch off turrets why AI can't?
If players can deconstruct things in an instant why AI can't?
If players can browse the forums for mods why AI can't?
If players can debate how sappers know this shit is hidden under the mountain why AI can't?
That was joke. No h8 intended, k?
But seriously, I got a "I can't do what the AI can't. It's unfair." vibe from your tone.

Your issue is that this mechanic makes it harder and unfun for you, at least that's what I think.
Care to expand on how? Is it too unbelievable and unrealistic? It breaks the game for you cause its hard to predict and thus prepare against?

Again, no h8 and insult intended.
I honestly find it fun and a nice little break from the killbox meatgrinder.

Sidenote: A raider engineer equipped with EMPs and capable of deconstructing walls, turrets and vital equipment would be a very interesting addition to the game. IMO

Edit: Edited to make myself look less like an asshole jerk.

For NemesisN's issue.

It's more of how the game can't give a reasonable answer as to why sappers are tunneling deep into the mountain instead of just going around his defenses. Using the player's inability to see inside mountains as basis. That's what I got from all this, at least.

SOLUTION?! ALLOW US TO SEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS, THEN IT CAN BE JUSTIFIED.

[Adamiks]

"If players can pause the game then why AI can't?"
Because player need to think for even 50+ colonists and is a human, when AI can control +100 colonists and will don't need to lag if you have good computer (btw, lags = AI pause)

"If players can place turrets why AI sieges can't?"
They can build mortars. I would to see another type of attack, like ultra siege when AI can build defenses like players.

"If players can switch off turrets why AI can't?"
If someone built a turret without any security (code etc) on it then he must be dumb like hell.

"If players can deconstruct things in an instant why AI can't?"
They can now - sappers. And remember about all these tools that colonists "have" (don't exactly :/, game limitation)

"If players can browse the forums for mods why AI can't?"
"AI" is browsing this whole forum 24/7 - Google. Yeah this isn't exactly "AI" but "AI" is just a raw code, like Google searching.

"If players can debate how sappers know this shit is hidden under the mountain why AI can't?"
Wait....

"Your issue is that this mechanic makes it harder and unfun for you, at least that's what I think.
Care to expand on how? Is it too unbelievable and unrealistic? It breaks the game for you cause its hard to predict and thus prepare against?"

I don't like unlogicial mechanics that are constructed to kill a player. For example building a power with bare hands is unlogicial, but c'mon would you wait 5 hours to build a room? This type of mechanics are unlogicial, but practical, because without them game would be boring and unfun, when unlogicial mechanics like AI that know where your base is even if your base is hidden is really annoying. Tynan said that sappers are good because they kill killbox mechanic, but look - with sappers there is small number of strategies that are good for killing sappers, so in general sappers make game very annoying and unfun for me. They should be polished so they wouldn't know where to dig exactly, but they would know where your entrance is and they would know where turrets are if someone escaped and they should avoid them digging somewhere where there is no turrets but in random distant from the turrets.

[NemesisN]

if AI had x-ray or any device or method to locate your colony hidden rooms then that would be mentioned in the Dev Blog

you keep imagining things (maybe, maybe, maybe)...they were never mentioned in Dev Blog....everything new that is added to the game is mentioned in Dev Blog....if AI had x-ray or any extra device on their advantage why would developer left out mentioning that in Dev Blog when he mentions everything that is added there

[A Friend]

if AI had x-ray or any device or method to locate your colony hidden rooms then that would be mentioned in the Dev Blog

you keep imagining things (maybe, maybe, maybe)...they were never mentioned in Dev Blog....everything new that is added to the game is mentioned in Dev Blog....if AI had x-ray or any extra device on their advantage why would developer left out mentioning that in Dev Blog when he mentions everything that is added there

Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."

I'm sorry but right now, we're pretty much left on our own to make sense of it.

How can colonists make advanced auto-turrets with only scraps of steel?
How can colonists mine stuff without even holding a pickaxe? Do they use their hands? They punch rocks and they sparkle wtf?
How exactly do we know when a raid is happening or a visitors are coming? How are we able to differentiate them? Yahoo mail?

[Snip snip snip]

I guess this is more of a personal preference. Unlogical things are ok as long as they either make sense or are fun. With sappers, as you said, there isn't much you can do against them. For you that's no fun. Well, I can't tell you that you're playing the game wrong. Probably the best you can do is hope that the bossman sees this as an issue and create a better AI ASAP. And honestly, that may be quite unlikely.

Though, what would just tunneling around your defenses do for you? It would make sense more? Wouldn't that still be quite annoying for you since they are still tunneling? You still won't be able to use different strategies. The only difference there's likely less vital equipment that would get destroyed.




P.S. Still, no h8 intended. Should my questions sound sarcastic-ish or belittling

[xlockeed]

It adds a challenge. If anything Mr.T is wanting to do away with kill boxes and turtling. I still like making mountain bases and when sappers come along I get the snipers out. Easy does it, even melee make short work of these types. I understand your comfort zone is breached  , the game is making you engage instead of hide behind mountain overhead cover. Trust me it's funner to win and lose a few. It adds depth and flavor. Try to make an out in the open fort. Then try and top that one. Then go and try it on a ice sheet.  Or play in peaceful / easy mode *shrug

It is still in alpha so maybe he will tweak the ai. I like it, nice change of pace when you get an ambush ready and the enemy takes a detour and begins digging. Gives you that good old "oh sh!t moment" .

[A Friend]

Their issue with it is not that it breaches their comfort zone, but rather they aren't getting acceptable answers as to why the AI is digging directly into their vital rooms that they shouldn't know about instead of just going around their defenses.

Summary: I want better AI logic and pathing. The current one is unacceptable and very annoying.

While improvements would be good, I believe the majority is pretty much ok with the current mechanics. Again, it's just up to Mr. T to decide if this is something to prioritize.