AI sees through walls

[Mikhail Reign]

Ok.

What the game has to offer: I can build a base. Pawns come and try and break it.

If the pawns don't know where my base is, they cant attack it, taking away a lot from what the game has to offer.

I get what you are saying - you don't like how the pawns can tell where everything is. How come you don't have a problem with the pawns spawning at the side of the map and then B-lining it right to your front door? They wouldn't have been able to see the door. They should have no idea where anything is. There was a giant mountain between where they spawned and the base - they should have spawned, seen the mountain and then thought 'oh well nothing here' and then left. Instead what they do is run straight around the mountain, using the shortest path between were they are and my door, as though they somehow knew where it way.

You have a problem with that too?

well I am glad that you get what I am talking about

so let me answer your question....the AI spawns on edge of the map because that is where the map cuts off that is where they came from....where should AI spawn then in middle ? that would make less sense.....also some of them drop down in space pods which also makes sense

the door or your entrance to colony base is right outside...visible for everyone...that is why it makes sense for them to easily locate it...the map is not a open world its a small boxed world where they can easily locate your colony base that is outside....but my topic here is why they can locate hidden rooms inside even though you can't locate hidden rooms or anything behind the mountain walls covered with roof ?

Enemy faction which are humans have everything that your colony has...same advantages and abilities...Sappers ruin that fair play with their unexplained knowledge of hidden spaces inside the mountains

Yeah... You seemed to address my point, while at the same time, completely avoiding it. No I don't want pawns to spawn in the middle - that's obviously stupid. My point was that the enemy pawns can see through everything. They can see around mountains so that they know your base is on the other side. They can see thought mountains so they know your base is inside it.

Using your logic, my door SHOULDN'T visible for everyone - my door should be visible for people who can look at it. If there was a wall, mountain, or dog between the attacking pawn and the door, they should not know it was there because they couldn't see it and walk past it. You cant apply the 'they shouldn't be able to see it' logic to one thing, and not another.

The problem here is a simple suspension of belief - a simple thought process that most people use when enjoying a movie, book or video game, that you seem to think is evil and wrong. The pawns know where you are because if they didn't it would leave them wondering aimlessly around the map. If they didn't know you were in areas that they couldn't access, you could just move everyone into a different room and fool the AI.

AI is a difficult thing to create - when I look at a gap in the rocks, I see a potential choke point, evaluate the rocks behind them as a good fall back position, see the open area above that as flanking risk and a thousand other things. When the AI see it, they see it as a position that they can move to.

Currently when the sapper AI spawn, they calculate the quickest way into our 'base' (another problem with AI - I can tell that 'that' room was made entirely and solely to kill sappers in once they drill into it, the AI sees it as a room I created equal to the rest) and then drill their way in. This is so that time between knowing of the attack, and having to respond to it is as small as possible - if you give people to much time to prepare you start putting heavy responsibility on the combat AI, it has to be able to react to thousands of potential response that people could come up with AFTER the attack is started. If the response time is short, the AI simply has to take into account the current variables, make a plan of attack for that and follow it through, as the variables stay relatively the same.

If you remove the sappers ability to know where we are, once they spawn, they would then have to take the almost infinite possible variations of base designs into account and then actually evaluate WHERE they think the base is, and then act on that. As a example of the problems with this; what is a sapper to do is your external base consists entirely of a entrance door? Using your example, they would drill into the wall next to the door, as this was their only option (they don't know where anything else is). The means that the sapper AI is completely broken - a simple kill box behind the door means that their only available option is to drill into the kill-box. Another example; if my base has a 30m hallway before the 'base proper' the sappers would, again as their only option, start drilling next to the door, and if their aim wasn't on, continue drilling until either A: they died of starvation, or B: until they hit the edge of the map. This would mean that they also would have to account for NOT finding the base, which brings up all new questions of how long do they try? how far is 'too far'? etc etc.

This leaves us at a crossroad; either we accept that we have to suspend disbelief for a bit and accept that sappers know where you are, or Ty has to create a skynet level AI that can take into account the almost infinite defensive and constructive possibilities that are open to us and is able to attack them with human level intellect.

That or sappers get nerfed into uselessness because they are completely incapable of action.

[NemesisN]

you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map that is outside including incoming enemies that are out of the range of your colony view and you can't see anything that is inside covered with roof and walls unless you explore it

AI should be able to do the same....that is my view of the situation you are talking about

[NemesisN]

also to add on Ty has not have to do anything even creating "skynet" AI if he does not want to

this is just my opinion and suggestion of modification...just trowing it out there...if he agrees with this he could modify (even he does not have to) if he is not interested then OK we move on

also AI can be created to act very human like...take Prison Architect for example...they act really human like....just an example of what AI can become

[Mikhail Reign]

also to add on Ty has not have to do anything even creating "skynet" AI if he does not want to

this is just my opinion and suggestion of modification...just trowing it out there...if he agrees with this he could modify (even he does not have to) if he is not interested then OK we move on

also AI can be created to act very human like...take Prison Architect for example...they act really human like....just an example of what AI can become

PA AI horrible. That is the worst example you could bring up. I.... I dont even know how to address that. The AI gets stuck on corners, doesn't evaluate anything other then 'whats my highest need' and even then badly (0 future vision), it can't think its way around locked door, doesnt take into account travel time at all, it... nah I'm not going into that I could write an entire essay on the problems with the PA AI, and how it doesn't even come close to 'human like'.

And back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

[NemesisN]

I don't know what Alpha version of Prison Architect did you play or how long did you play it but they made quite a lot of changes and improved AI by far...they do not get stuck...they do act human like and they do act the way any human would in prison

AI in RimWorld should be able to see outside map same as you do...that means he should not be able to see hidden areas like you can't and be able to see everything that is uncovered with roof...but that is not the case he can see even hidden areas

[zandadoum]

like 10 times already I said its pointless to talk about something that (I will use Caps letters this time maybe you will get it) THE GAME DOES NOT HAVE to explain a feature that exists in game

and another quote from you:

same thing with "spies", "x-rays" and all that kind of made up things...those are your opinions based on made up things on what you want to believe in not the actual facts that exist in the game...

how about you stop contradicting yourself and make up your mind?

- either you accept stuff that doesnt have an explanation, like raids knowing where, on a bigass planet, to find your base, or how to remember traps when no1 survived, or WHERE TO SAPPERS SHOULD DIG

- or you don't accept ANY of those concepts


the bottom line here is: you're too stupid to figure out how to deal with sappers, which you never will figure out on your own, as you lack of any sort of imagination and so you come here to whine about the AI.
hint: snipe them from behind while they dig. WOW! was so hard to figure out, hum?

you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map

you're getting more idiotic by the minute...
YOU, as THE PLAYER, have that bird view. your colonists DON'T. so, you what do you want, enemy raids to have same powers as COLONISTS or same power as PLAYER?

[NemesisN]

zandadoum you are acting really childish right now and ignorant

if you have problems with traps like I said make a topic about it...if you don't like my complaint about things I would like to see changed then leave the topic....I payed for the game I have every right to suggest changes like everyone else here...I already said that....why is it hard for you to read simple written stuff ?

and you can say that your colony has a bird view since they know exactly the direct path to animals when they hunt or things when the haul they never spend time searching for it but go directly to it same as enemy AI does to you


grow up

[TLHeart]

you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map that is outside including incoming enemies that are out of the range of your colony view and you can't see anything that is inside covered with roof and walls unless you explore it

AI should be able to do the same....that is my view of the situation you are talking about

And so does the AI, if you can see it, so can the AI....You can see your rooms inside the mountain, so can the AI.

You say you shot every visitor, but how many do you capture? Everyone of them reports back what they have seen. Once a trap has been seen by any AI, all AI's know about that trap. Same for your base layout, inside or outside the mountain.

You trade with the ships orbiting above the planet. Your pawns talk to those ships. Higher social skills changes prices, but what are social skills? The small talk, the get to know each other, giving and sharing of information... Nothing is hidden for long.

The sapper AI avoids defense locations. They target known rooms. How do they know about those rooms inside a mountain, loose lips sink ships, and every social interactions disseminates information.

A captured pawned, is carried into the prison, that event gives the AI KNOWLEDGE of the base layout.

Easiest way to defeat the sappers, engage them BEFORE they start digging.... the escorts will not even defend as a group, just wander back and forth... Alternative method, kill the sapper, easy to identify, he will have grenades, or molotives, once he is dead, the escorts attack the front door.

[Mikhail Reign]

I don't know what Alpha version of Prison Architect did you play or how long did you play it but they made quite a lot of changes and improved AI by far...they do not get stuck...they do act human like and they do act the way any human would in prison

Been playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday. The AI sucks. More gripes - only 5 guards will attack a prisoner at once meaning the ones that get stuck don't contribute to the fight leaving guards to walk past fights, guards cant be controlled (i.e: sent to attack and/or pull off an attack), prisoners wont take into account anything when considering their needs (will start fight because low hygiene needs on the way to lower hygiene needs), guards abandon positions without waiting for a replacement (especially painfull when remote doors come into it)

And you still managed to sidestep one of the biggest points in this whole argument.

And back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

why is it hard for you to read simple written stuff ?

Doubleplus

[NemesisN]

And so does the AI, if you can see it, so can the AI....You can see your rooms inside the mountain, so can the AI.

You say you shot every visitor, but how many do you capture? Everyone of them reports back what they have seen. Once a trap has been seen by any AI, all AI's know about that trap. Same for your base layout, inside or outside the mountain.

You trade with the ships orbiting above the planet. Your pawns talk to those ships. Higher social skills changes prices, but what are social skills? The small talk, the get to know each other, giving and sharing of information... Nothing is hidden for long.

The sapper AI avoids defense locations. They target known rooms. How do they know about those rooms inside a mountain, loose lips sink ships, and every social interactions disseminates information.

A captured pawned, is carried into the prison, that event gives the AI KNOWLEDGE of the base layout.

Easiest way to defeat the sappers, engage them BEFORE they start digging.... the escorts will not even defend as a group, just wander back and forth... Alternative method, kill the sapper, easy to identify, he will have grenades, or molotives, once he is dead, the escorts attack the front door.

you can't see hidden rooms unless you discover it.....AI can...your hidden rooms should be hidden from AI....AI should see what you see that means the outside....your dugout space hidden in mountains should be only visible to you

the visitors that I capture never leave my prison alive....how can they possibly send something back if they are locked up in their prison with noting to contact their faction ? Their either end up joining me or executed...that is made up that makes no sense...same as that trading thing for them to give up information that is also made up

the prison is outside from my main base where hidden rooms are....your explanation of things does not make sense on how it works in RimWorld

yes I know I need to go offense on them...but it takes time for them to go there while they dig little by little every block...also there is a group of them awaiting for your ambush so its highly risky

[Mikhail Reign]

And back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

[NemesisN]

Been playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday. The AI sucks. More gripes - only 5 guards will attack a prisoner at once meaning the ones that get stuck don't contribute to the fight leaving guards to walk past fights, guards cant be controlled (i.e: sent to attack and/or pull off an attack), prisoners wont take into account anything when considering their needs (will start fight because low hygiene needs on the way to lower hygiene needs), guards abandon positions without waiting for a replacement (especially painfull when remote doors come into it)

And you still managed to sidestep one of the biggest points in this whole argument.

there was a lot of changes its currently in Alpha 35...you should try that one or watch a video and see how AI has advanced....I guess you are playing old Alphas that had a lot of issues and unfinished things...Prison Architect only has 1 Alpha to go before its final release so its 99% completed

the problems you mentioned are fixed...so yeah you should try the newest Alpha 35 and see how human like they really become


I think I answered your questions I don't think I avoided anything unless some of us 2 misunderstood something

the way I am dealing with the problem now is offense even though they do manage to dig tunnels half way trough my base until I reach them with my colony....AI can see pretty much everything given the fact they find a direct path to everything

[NemesisN]

you have schedules and a lot of possibility to control the guard

prisoners will sometimes start a fight because they have that kind of nature that is what makes them human like...they do go for highest priority need like if you need to take a piss really bad you will go to the bathroom first then do other things after that....makes them human like

everything  that you see in Prison Architect is how prisons in reality function and that was the main goal for developers to make AI more human like behaviors in prisons as well as staff....and they did that

seriously play alpha 35 for some time the AI is probably the most human like AI then any game out there that exists

[Mikhail Reign]

you have schedules and a lot of possibility to control the guard

prisoners will sometimes start a fight because they have that kind of nature that is what makes them human like...they do go for highest priority need like if you need to take a piss really bad you will go to the bathroom first then do other things after that....makes them human like

seriously play alpha 35 for some time the AI is probably the most human like AI then any game out there that exists

Been playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday.

I can tell you right now that those problems aren't fixed. Like I said, played it yesterday. Played alpha35. AI still sucks. Scheduling was a nice improvement (when it came out like... 9 months ago) but guard AI still sucks. The AI doesn't get tapped for a task until that task is open. Meaning a guard manning a door control station will abandon it, and a random guard anywhere on the map will get tapped to take over the role. This means that camera/phone/door stations can be unmanned for a long time. Since the AI doesn't react to a locked doors this means that you can get large amounts of pawns banked up on doors (including the guy who is trying to get to the control panel to open the door) that will never open. Thats just a simply off the top of the head AI problem that is typical of the AI in PA. Another good example is that prisoners start riots because they are hungry IN the canteen preventing them getting food - this example can be applied to any situation.

Prisoners also dont take into account travel time when making decisions. This is most obvious when a prisoner will choose to use a toilet in a cell block 15 minutes walk away, instead of the one they are standing next to, which again, can start riots.

[NemesisN]

I can tell you right now that those problems aren't fixed. Like I said, played it yesterday. Played alpha35. AI still sucks. Scheduling was a nice improvement (when it came out like... 9 months ago) but guard AI still sucks. The AI doesn't get tapped for a task until that task is open. Meaning a guard manning a door control station will abandon it, and a random guard anywhere on the map will get tapped to take over the role. This means that camera/phone/door stations can be unmanned for a long time. Since the AI doesn't react to a locked doors this means that you can get large amounts of pawns banked up on doors (including the guy who is trying to get to the control panel to open the door) that will never open. Thats just a simply off the top of the head AI problem that is typical of the AI in PA. Another good example is that prisoners start riots because they are hungry IN the canteen preventing them getting food - this example can be applied to any situation.

Prisoners also dont take into account travel time when making decisions. This is most obvious when a prisoner will choose to use a toilet in a cell block 15 minutes walk away, instead of the one they are standing next to, which again, can start riots.

you said you play Alpha 35 but AI gets stuck ? Are you being serious right now ? That problem is fixed then never get stuck...delete your old version saves and start a new prison maybe you bugged the game somehow.....the guard will go on a break the guard can't work 24/7 without a brake that makes them human like...that is how real prisons are...if you don't make schedule the game will try to replace another guard in a position that needs to be guarded if first guard goes on brake or somewhere else....that is how reality is.....prisoners AI try to brake locked doors or steal keys to pass it....Guards carry keys for locked prison doors....workers carry keys for staff door....control panel opens doors if you allow them to open either on staff or prisoners depending what Zone did you put in....which makes it like in reality

prisoners start riots sometimes because they planed it, sometimes because most of them don't like your rules or if they don't get the food...if canteen prevents them from getting food then that is the problem on your part you are doing something wrong...its how in reality is

prisoners can only leave if you allow them to leave early because they need to obey your rules and your schedule that you made for them....watch what zones you allow them to go or not that is also part of your problem

you said you build a 1000+ capacity prison....what do you think there will not be riots or mess ? its reality that is how real prisons work and you have 1000+ thinking it would be peaceful....you created a hell hole


I am surprised that you think this way in Alpha 35....its like you are still playing a old version and not the new one

give me more reasons why you think AI is not human like I will give you more explanations