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Author Topic: AI sees through walls  (Read 14976 times)

NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2015, 01:56:14 AM »



Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."






and where did you read or find this ?? there is no Alpha 11f first of all....take a screenshot of this being in Dev Blog because there is no such thing like this you wrote right here in Dev Blog
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Adamiks

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 06:48:54 AM »

"With sappers, as you said, there isn't much you can do against them. For you that's no fun. Well, I can't tell you that you're playing the game wrong."

No, there is a lot of ways to fight them easily, and you know why? Because AI of sappers (and raiders in general) is kinda dumb (no offence to Tynan, greating a good AI is really hard, i know) so player can use this to create a killboxes even for sappers. For example, you dig into mountain, where mountain is on the right side of the map, you dig your base really deep creating only coridor for let's say 50-100 blocks. You put a normal killbox next to entrance and you build a line of turrets and traps in the walls 10-20 blocks deep in the mountain. Sappers, of course will go ahead and dig to to another turrets, because they're too dump to dig in another place 50-100 blocks and then turn into room/coridor (they should know where the coridor is, if they know where entrance is, also they should know where turrets are after one of them escaped in sapper squad). You know what i mean? Sappers just dig stright forward and this make them easy to kill.

And about hard games - you're really wrong. I'm actually playing in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl on veteran (hard, there is also really hard) with mod that makes guns more realistic and you know what makes this really hard? AI that isn't so dump to not throw a grenades at me   if they have them or to heal their companions. Also NPC's with mission can easily die too. For example today bandits killed two NPCs with missions (of course if they die you will can play storyline, you get info from corpses), and without quick saving you can't do anything about it. You lost 2500 rubels because NPC died?(?)? You should fight better!

And THIS is hard game and not so annoying mechanic like in Rimworld. In stalker (with this mod) ai is really good and if NPC get killed of you get killed then you can blame only yourself, because NPCs magically don't know where you are.
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A Friend

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2015, 08:31:33 AM »



Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."






and where did you read or find this ?? there is no Alpha 11f first of all....take a screenshot of this being in Dev Blog because there is no such thing like this you wrote right here in Dev Blog

That was a mockup I made. But should Tynan actually post something like that, would you be ok with it? Since our explanations aren't "Official".

[Snip Snip]

Man, I'm no expert on video games, so I don't have much say.

I don't really have a clear definition of a Good or Bad AI. I can tolerate slight flaws, but not gamebreaking ones.

Example of things I'm ok with: Stealth games where enemies can quickly spot you but because you weren't being smart.
Example of things I'm not ok with: Stealth games where enemies can instantly spot you without any indication, from behind that dense bush. Fuck those AIs.

For Rimworld, I have no problem with the current AI. I haven't really found anything really annoying or gamebreaking yet nor is it boring. Better and smarter AIs that you also wish for would be a welcome addition though. Overall, this is still pretty much personal preference and tolerance of certain issues. With this AI tunneling discussion thing, it's more of "How long will I be able to put up with this?" and deciding if it's something Mr. T should prioritize.

You may get "Oh don't worry Tynan, you can focus on the other features." or "Man, this thing needs to be fixed ASAP." depending on who you ask.

Regarding hard games... eh... I guess, Dwarf Fortress?
It has smackton of mechanics that makes the game brutal and somewhat unfair. I loved every minute of it and every glorious downfall of a fortress. Im a masochist.

TL;DR: AIs having better tunneling mechanics is a very good thing. Is it really that important to shift focus on and released soon though?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:36:49 AM by A Friend »
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2015, 08:45:13 AM »

so you posted something based on your imagination....look I am not here to talk about fairy tales I am here to talk about in game features that exist and that are not made up...making things up and having a discussion about it is pointless...so stick to the game and what exist and not your imagination

and why are you talking about Dwarf Fortress ? we are talking about RimWorld here...if you are going to start comparing which game is more difficult then why don't you mention Bloodborne or Meat Boy or every other difficult game out there

stick to the RimWorld will you ?
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2015, 08:49:39 AM »


No, there is a lot of ways to fight them easily, and you know why? Because AI of sappers (and raiders in general) is kinda dumb (no offence to Tynan, greating a good AI is really hard, i know) so player can use this to create a killboxes even for sappers. For example, you dig into mountain, where mountain is on the right side of the map, you dig your base really deep creating only coridor for let's say 50-100 blocks. You put a normal killbox next to entrance and you build a line of turrets and traps in the walls 10-20 blocks deep in the mountain. Sappers, of course will go ahead and dig to to another turrets, because they're too dump to dig in another place 50-100 blocks and then turn into room/coridor (they should know where the coridor is, if they know where entrance is, also they should know where turrets are after one of them escaped in sapper squad). You know what i mean? Sappers just dig stright forward and this make them easy to kill.


can you post a example picture ? its hard to imagine what exactly you are saying
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:52:47 AM by NemesisN »
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BassMonroe

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2015, 09:06:10 AM »

Maybe the raiders have a satellite that can cycle through temperature etc to see what is inside mountains or whether they are hollow - From a story side of things.
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A Friend

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2015, 09:27:46 AM »

so you posted something based on your imagination....look I am not here to talk about fairy tales I am here to talk about in game features that exist and that are not made up...making things up and having a discussion about it is pointless...so stick to the game and what exist and not your imagination

and why are you talking about Dwarf Fortress ? we are talking about RimWorld here...if you are going to start comparing which game is more difficult then why don't you mention Bloodborne or Meat Boy or every other difficult game out there

stick to the RimWorld will you ?

Woah. Ok.
We get that you demand better AIs. Alright, we get that.

But you're also searching for an explanation as to how raiders know this shit.
but the stupid thing about that is how the hell they know where exact to dig ?

Forum people are giving out their ideas. You reject them cause nowhere in the game nor in Tynan's blog does he state that, I try to ask IF he does state it, would you be OK with his explanations cause it's "Official".

Let's try a different example.
You ask how colonists mine rocks if they aren't even holding tools. The game gives no explanation. We are left to imagine. We imagine them holding a pickaxe and go with that answer. But since it's not coming from Tynan, our imagination is wrong. That's how it sounds right now. Okay.

Also the Dwarf Fortress thing was meant for Adamiks regarding AIs and unfair mechanics.

Damn, I'm feeling uncomfortable. Fine, I won't participate in this anymore.

Edited.
Edit 2: Since there's pretty much little to discuss and this in general is a good idea. I propose this just be turned into a suggestion. Better sapper AI pathing. Add polls as well.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 09:45:32 AM by A Friend »
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Adamiks

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2015, 09:40:18 AM »

Quick picture in Paint. Don't complain about quality, please ;D


Sappers shouldn't know exactly where the small room or room is, but they should know that if there is a entrance then there must a base, so they should start search that base by digging in directions next to killbox instead digging exactly to the room.

To A Friend - i'm not trying to be rude, if i was rude in some post, sorry, i agree about this imagination stuff though, but i can't imagine that my colonists not died due to unlogicial sappers mechanic ;d
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 09:43:15 AM by Adamiks »
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2015, 09:50:28 AM »


Sappers shouldn't know exactly where the small room or room is, but they should know that if there is a entrance then there must a base, so they should start search that base by digging in directions next to killbox instead digging exactly to the room.


your picture is completely different from mine...if you see my on 1st page on top...in your picture AI tries to avoid main defense in front by dinging around it...which is not wrong...but in mine if you can see they go far far away from the entrance and where the base is....really by far...how do they know how deep my base inside the mountain is ?

in your picture your kill box and main gate is just in front of your base and small room inside the mountain so its logical for them to know there is a base behind it

in my picture hidden room is far far away from main entrance and defense so they could not possibly know that there is a room deep inside specific location of the mountain far away from the main entrance...but they do know and that is the problem

just take a look at mine picture and yours....you will see the difference
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2015, 11:27:47 AM »

wow NemesisN your gamer pic def shows how you feel and that you like a show that took  7 eps of some guy standing with a ball over his head.

its just a picture and it does not show anything about me...you just imagine things from your head

and that "7 eps of some guy standing with a ball over his head" makes no sense of whatever you meant with that
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Adamiks

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2015, 11:37:13 AM »

Yeah... I made that picture wrong. That small room should like 50 blocks down from the normal Room and there should be a coridor from Room to Small Room and my point is that they shouldn't dig straight forward to that corridor that is way into the mountain, but they should "search" for the room close to the killbox digging in another directions when they are in mountain and they see that there is no room (they shouldn't know where the room is, but they should know that there must be somewhere next to the killbox, in general they should act like humans). This digging straight forward to closest room is really anoying and make sappers unlogicial and unpredictable.
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Dawa1147

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2015, 05:30:56 PM »

Ok, I can understand Sappers/their AI being annoying, especially if you rely on defense. I can understand that you think they shouldnt know everything.
But there is just one favor I ask you:
Please stop saying something is wrong just "because its not Tynans Blog", especially if its an opinion (not a hard fact) or a suggestion of how to deal with Sappers (I know they don't answer why sappers habe that knowledge, but they are giving you ideas of how to deal with them without Colonists Dying).
The fact that you keep insisting on this notion of if-its-not-in-the-Blog-its-wrong makes you look like a Douche, or even a Troll (especially because its almost(!) the only reply you give).

Besides, I know Tynan documents almost everything (and I love that), but he doesnt write down everything, so even if its not in the Blog, it can be true:
-For example, he doesn't write down every Name he addes to the game, and yet these Names exist.
-He doesnt write down the exact code for how Sappers work, but if someone writes in the Forums how Sappers work, its still true even though Tynan hasnt written in the Blog exactly how the Code works.
-Tynan doesn't write why only 3 people made it, its just given and its up to you to make a Story out of it, and just because the Story isnt confirmed to be true by Tynan, it still can still be true

TL,DR:
Please Stop saying opinions are wrong because some guy didnt explicitly say the opinion was right. It makes you look like an a**ehole. Also, if you don't like Sappers you can Mod your Game to make them never pop up, or you can try to mod their AI.

Edit (4.8.2015): fixed a typo
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 05:34:22 PM by Dawa1147 »
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2015, 06:29:17 PM »

Dawa1147  how is telling me that Sappers have X-Ray a suggestion on how to deal with them ? I never told anyone about Dev Blog or they are wrong when they gave me a suggestion or opinions on how to deal with them...only the ones who told me about X-Ray thing....and how is that a suggestion on how to deal with them in your head ? how can telling me that they have X-Ray possibly help me ?

so No I do not tell people about Dev Blog who give me ideas or suggestions on how to defend against them...I only tell people about Dev Blog when they start talking about X-Ray and those kind of things that they imagined

how about you read the conversation and my comments correctly before you decide to post a insult to me based on your ignorance
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:22:19 PM by NemesisN »
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xlockeed

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2015, 09:31:32 PM »

 And how would you code that? Your asking for more then you think. It's not a simple flip of switch. I could only see two things here.
1.Target visible structures only = kill blocks to distract enemy around edge of map.
2.Target structures within a set parameter = if structures are deep inside a mountain sappers won't target it unless they come across an area that triggers them to dig. Otherwise they target a structure from a distance and bomb it.
3.Extravagant targeting code where the sappers do random sh!t but never heat seek right to base = That's a ton of line code to do just for one enemy type.

One and two in my opinion could be tweaked but the end result would be exploitable and thus a new can of worms to code. Three is asking too much from Tynan, unless he is a wizard and can spin out unique ai targeting. Be honest, you do not like random holes in your mountain? Zero deaths and zero breaches, this is what you want yes?
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NemesisN

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Re: AI sees trough walls
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2015, 02:50:20 AM »

Zero deaths and zero breaches ?

No...I never said that I want that....please do not make up things about me that I never said....look at my picture that I posted on 1st page on top....I explained everything there

Developer don't have to do anything if he does not want to or finds difficult...this is just an opinion of mine about this feature....thats it....just like every other person on forum that creates topic on what he likes in the game and what he does not like....and what he would like to see to change

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