Tech booming, realism, pacing.

[b0rsuk]

Research sinks are on the way. One use alien artifacts.

[Tynan]

The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.

Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.

Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.

That's the idea for now, at least.

I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.

[Songleaves]

I've sort of viewed "researching" more as "drafting" or "planning". Like the colonists already know the theory of how to build it, but they need to draw it up before they actually start construction. Kind of like this doctor at some rural hospital that had a baby that needed dialysis, but the hospital had no dialysis machines that could handle a small infant. The doctor knew the basic underlying theory of how dialysis machines work, so he drafted up a plan for a dialysis machine out of stuff he had in his garage, got a welder to help him construct it, and ended up producing a dialysis machine so good the hospital continues to use it to this day. If that doctor had been sitting at a bench trying to invent a machine that helps people with failing kidneys then it would have probably taken years, but since he was just drawing up plans for a machine that he already knew of it only took a few days, kind of like the time it takes to research things in Rimworld.

[DNK]

The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.

Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.

Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.

That's the idea for now, at least.

I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.

Excellent. I definitely like the electronics resource idea, it meshes with my own theory of how to improve the game:

There should be a tech/resource (electronics!) that is very hard to get or use in the early game and requires a decent amount of scientific progression to achieve. Before it is reached, communications with traders is non-existent. Once it is reached, then you are plugged into the futuristic economy and can start ordering more advanced parts and offering resources/loot/etc for money and more rapidly building up your tech from there (since you can always "just buy it" if you haven't the resources/tech to do it yourself).

So the game gets neatly divided into two parts:
1) pre-electronics, just trying to figure out how to survive with basic resources and technologies, reinventing the wheel sort of, most research is practical rather than theoretic in nature since everyone knows at a high school level at least how everything in this tech era works. Even if someone shows up who was a nuclear engineer, it's not like they can bang two uranium-rich rocks together and make you power. You start with your clothes and some sticks and attempt to get to a point where you can harvest silica (sandstone), copper, and plastics (oil would be a useful resource...), and where you have figured out the basics of electronic engineering.

2) post-electronics. Now you have access to all of future-modern society's goods. You can build an "internet station" and instantly learn whatever you need to know to use something. You can buy a "3d printing station" and pretty much make any part you need if you have the basic resources (steel, etc). Research is fairly simply just "googling it and watching the youtube videos on how to do it". Only really complex stuff, like building a nuclear reactor (example, not sure if ever planned to be included) would require more in-depth research. Basically, this works about as it works now, short and simple research projects without any clear "tree" or progression. "I want A/C", "okay, I googled it, we're good."

Note, you can make it optional (for players who want it easier) for loot drops to include electronic-bearing items that can be (early game) disassembled into parts and reassembled into a comms station, which would greatly shorten part 1.

[DNK]

I've sort of viewed "researching" more as "drafting" or "planning". Like the colonists already know the theory of how to build it, but they need to draw it up before they actually start construction. Kind of like this doctor at some rural hospital that had a baby that needed dialysis, but the hospital had no dialysis machines that could handle a small infant. The doctor knew the basic underlying theory of how dialysis machines work, so he drafted up a plan for a dialysis machine out of stuff he had in his garage, got a welder to help him construct it, and ended up producing a dialysis machine so good the hospital continues to use it to this day. If that doctor had been sitting at a bench trying to invent a machine that helps people with failing kidneys then it would have probably taken years, but since he was just drawing up plans for a machine that he already knew of it only took a few days, kind of like the time it takes to research things in Rimworld.

Yes, me too, something like this. These guys know everything pretty much, but need to actually "reinvent the wheel" to build it since they probably never have the practical or design experience. I mean, I know how to use a power drill and certainly the basic mechanical and physical properties of how one works, but I couldn't just make you one from scratch in 1 day if you asked. I would need to actually take a lot of time in CAD to design the pieces from googled part specs, figure out the wiring, and fix the inevitable bugs before I could start pumping them out of a workshop or 3D printer or whatever. A common hand tool like that isn't just "common sense" to make even if you use it every day.

And if I didn't have Google, it would take months of trial and error. And if I didn't have a fancy 3D printer or computer, it would take longer still. Which is a way of saying a computer station should really help researching efficiency

[MrWiggles]

I too would like a game with a far more in-depth tech tree and a longer tech tree with "eras" so to speak.

Also a game where investing in research was more complex than "have that one really smart guy do it in 1-2 days". Something that had to be managed because, as you progressed, it required a constant dedication of a significant portion of your colonists to progress.

...

Eras is just totally asinine. Even "old" colonies don't exceed a generation. Colonies in play don't really last (though I'm sure there some player out thta has), 50+ years.

You'd still be going exceedingly, stupidly fast.

[Tynan]

It doesn't have to be realistic to be good design. Be civil please.

[MrWiggles]

There isn't a need for incremental building knowledge, which is what most research system tries to abstract. There are already spaceships, and AI Cores and all that stuff. There no need, beyond an attempt at a linear progression, for there to be a technology gating.

What stopped the romans from making steam engines, wasn't the lack of knowledge (it was in part but not arguably the largest part), but lack of infrastructure.  They didnt have the tools or manufacturing capability to make the fine quality machined parts.

I would dash away with research, and just make it into industry chains that can build on each other.  Which is far simpler thing to say then to do. This also do away with pawns having knowledges, and passing knowledges to groups and tracking knowledges between groups, and transfer of knowledge between groups, and group knowledge being passed to pawns.

But the for the crashed survivors, its not lack of knowledge that prevents from making space ship, its lack of industry to make the space ship. You can still have still batteries and solar panels and automated turrets be possible from the start as well. The start up scenario would just need to include those parts for them.

[Toggle]

Yeah... I'm thinking a research project like 'Electronics' that allows you access to all the items requiring and containing electricity would be interesting, but that would leave people in the stone age until they get someone to research it and that would just be very inconvenient.

[StorymasterQ]

If we give the artists access to electronics, would they make Electronic Arts?

BA DUM TSH!

[Elixiar]

Maybe a simpler solution to this, which while doesn't hard limit tech. It also allows it to make more sense.

When you crash land, everything you build should be 'improvised'

The solar panels are made at an amateur level. Smaller, with bits of tape in areas. The energy they generate is impractical, and inconsistent.

Same with generators, batteries and so on.
Sure, these are technological people. They have seen this stuff before, but it's like if someone asked you to make a handheld torch. You have seen it, you have a basic understanding and with time and the right materials you may be able to cobble one together.

Improvised and cobbled together tech would defuse the whole "how the hell can they build a fully functional solar panel 4 times their size!" Argument.

Researching these things could work like a manual to the colonists 'research - improved solar panels'

Suddenly it's not "I guess it's some panel things with a battery" and it's "so yeah, some light sensors here that are connected to..."

Obviously it's a game and doesn't have to make perfect logical sense.
Some people don't like the whole upgrade system as they think it's boring. Personally, I love it, especially if it 'upgrades' the visual of a construction and provides new build options.

In this way you are providing realistic context for a crash landing bunch of strangers, and also not hard limiting what tech you can build, just how effective it is.

[Solanus]

The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.

Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.

Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.

That's the idea for now, at least.

I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.

I've actually been lurking on these boards for quite a while, but I had actually had a burst of activity when I first joined, including my first post which talked about having many of the more complex technological items require an example piece (even non-functional) in order to determine how to make new pieces.  It also used an abstract resource similar to Tynan's "electronics" resource called "parts".

I think the key to this whole gated access thing is that it may not be so much a question of understanding the technologies at work, but instead having the manufacturing capabilities to put that knowledge to use.  I would say that you would need to create variations on the crafting tables that allow for greater and greater precision and functionality, from hand tools to power tools to machine tools and beyond.  You shouldn't be able to start the game with the ability to create a 3D printer or a CNC machine, but those might be things that can be unlocked through research or some kind of "tinkering" activity on a proto-crafting table.

Ooh, evil thought - back when I've refined it some...

[DNK]

There isn't a need for incremental building knowledge, which is what most research system tries to abstract. There are already spaceships, and AI Cores and all that stuff. There no need, beyond an attempt at a linear progression, for there to be a technology gating.

Perhaps you didn't read my other responses. I agree mostly and said as much. ONCE the colony has access to the internet and 3D printers and such, there's no reason they can't build just about anything after a single research step. The only purpose of having additional depth then is for "advanced" builds (more efficiency, larger, etc). I mean, I wouldn't personally start off my A/C needs by building a 25,000BTU industrial unit, but probably a 2,500BTU window unit, then scale up. Or I'd get a generic plan for X and then start tinkering with it to adapt it to my particular environment/needs, which would be "research".

However, you also still need to dedicate a significant amount of time to researching a given industrial process before you can start doing it yourself, even with the internet. Just requiring the player to "build a forge" "build a more advanced forge", etc, is missing a key part of the progress equation: brainpower to get it to all work and figure out what's needed for the next step. Some of it is obvious scaling up, some of it your average person today couldn't figure out without online/expert assistance.

But first you need to get to the point where you can connect to the internet, which probably will require first being able to call someone and ask to buy a modem/computer with some refined gold or whatever. That requires building up to basic electronics. There's two ways to go about that:
1) assume you have to literally build up from scratch.
2) assume you can scavenge parts from crashed ships/etc and figure a way out to make a communication system from that.

#1 would lead to your approach: progressively building up an industrial base capable of creating basic electronics. #2 would just require you to research "transistor radio" or something and scavenging the rest.

Currently the game and Tynan seem to be leaning towards not-our-approach  , so #2 would be more likely to be implemented. However, I'd love mods to offer a more in-depth "up from basics" approach.

Also I think the Romans were constrained far more by knowledge than you're claiming, but that's a bit too tangential to muck up the thread with.

[DNK]

Maybe a simpler solution to this, which while doesn't hard limit tech. It also allows it to make more sense.

When you crash land, everything you build should be 'improvised'
[snip]

Yes, I like this approach also, and it probably fits in more with the direction Tynan wants the game to go in.

Ultimately, what I think a lot of those of us who like more depth are really wanting is *hard choices*, or at least not-totally-insignificant choices. Currently, choosing what to research is just a question of "what do I want to build tomorrow?" You aren't being challenged at all to adapt yourself to your situation, to actually plan a research path or deliberate alternative research directions, where the tradeoffs of labor spent on R&D need to be balanced with the expected rewards of the "15% better A/C unit".

I like problem-solving. R&D currently presents no additional problems. It could, however.

"My colony is far from a good iron resource, yet I am now bottlenecked by iron deficiency. Is it better to use my researching pawn for hauling, or is it better to use him to R&D a more efficient mining method that results in +15% metal per unit ore, or is it better to use him to R&D a +10% faster wheelbarrow, each of which will take X days/weeks of time for him to complete?"

Those are the sorts of problems I like, and the sort that require fine balancing and really make a game more fun.

They're also the sorts of problems casual gamers can just ignore, because you don't ever NEED a 10% faster wheelbarrow, so this still works with the current approach of the developer.

[Solanus]

I have refined the evil thought into this - modular crafting table system:

Basically, you would start with a manual activity table that's only 1x2 or 1x3, and then you build adjacent modules that decrease crafting time, increase quality, improve material efficiency, or possibly automate processes.  Set the initial table down and then select an additional panel to build.  Each panel would have one cell that is just the overlapping link to the original table and then one or two cells that show the added functions.  The pawn would build the original table as normal, but each additional panel would be built at a slower pace the first time it's built, with the rate based on the pawn's Construction, Crafting, and Research skills, as they "tinker" their way to building the new components.  Once the first example is built (or a kit is bought from a trader or recovered in the field), later examples would be built at regular Construction rates.