The problem with Rimworld

[Lonely Rogue]

I wouldn't call it a problem, I would call it RimWorld not being Dwarf Fortress.

[HallaK9]

I wouldn't call it a problem, I would call it RimWorld not being Dwarf Fortress.

I wouldn't call it a problem either, I'd call it the game being in alpha.  Tynan is aiming for a game that generates emergent gameplay and stories however, and that's not yet really happening.  Rimworld has been moving in the right direction pretty consistently and at a good pace though so I'm not all that worried.

Rimworld hasn't passed it Boatmurdered Point yet, and trying to collectively figure how to get it there can't hurt.

[Elixiar]

"I'm not playing to lose"

Well, that's not entirely true. The raiders keep going up and up and up.
Eventually it's going to impossible and I think by design a colony is not supposed to survive forever if played with threats on.
I think the game is about the journey to a giant colony and not actually sustaining a giant colony. The game eliminating you preserves the longevity to try again. Always surviving gets boring quickly.
I've personally never made it to anywhere near 300+ in the raids, I've either abandoned my colony through space travel or had my colonists lay dead and dying in burned out ruins.

On the other hand, we have nothing to scale with the increased enemy.
Different turret types can never be acquired and our colonists can only really fight 1v1. Shotgun turrets or sniper turrets or shield emplacements may sound overpowered but really they are not. Considering the rush tactics of the enemy, embracsures Would actually allow colonists to enter the fight. Enemies would spread out along the walled defenses and overall more interesting fights would occur.

But we don't have these outside of mods... So, to those saying what other way to defend, a couple of ideas I tried and have at least thought of. (Obviously I'm not telling you how to play just some new defense ways I thought up).

The lighthouse -

A sandbagged, turret heavy area away from the main colony that Colonists rush to, the position covers all sides in a circle. Turrets on outer level, colonists more packed in. Traps randomly around perimeter.

The marketplace -
Colony structures are built around a central marketplace, which also acts as the defensive hub - sandbags And turrets covering all sides.

Castle and village (3 walls) -
Fortified armoury and medical bay at centre of colony (or against a mountain, not in it)
Turret perimeter followed by a wall.
Lower town buildings like homes and production tables in the second layer, turrets and walls.
Final layer is mostly farm fields with a few turret placements around entrances.

These aren't designed to be impenetrable, but other ways to defend a colony that is not just a kill box.

Just throwing ideas out .

Lastly about the people that would riot -
FTL was brutal even on easy difficulty. Normal was insane, and then they released a big update that made it even harder! No end of people complained. Let them riot.

[Drakon22]

You've got to remember though, this is only alpha 12.

[The13thRonin]

If there's a tool at a players disposal then using that tool is not 'abusing the game'.

They didn't all hop out of their trenches in WW1 and have a pitched field battle for a reason. Most people are going to use every tool at their disposal to win.

Don't give players auto-turrets and embrasures and then expect them not to be used . Especially considering enemies always naturally funnel into the same spot so there's no reason to spread your defenses out.

[FMJ Penguin]

I've never built a ship. I'll admit it. Couple thousand hours prolly and still not one ship piece or part ever built. I just can't do it, not interesting to me. I'd rather watch my base burn to ash then "win". On the other hand if there was something beyond just ending the game when you leave the planet....

[Toggle]

Just gotta remember, it's only Alpha 12, this is basically asking for more content in general when Tynan's already got his hand full, as what he mostly does is add content.

[NoImageAvailable]

You've got to remember though, this is only alpha 12.

It was originally going to be 1.0. So no, this whole "its Alpha" talk is pretty pointless. Hell, even if it wasn't for the fact Tynan considers the game complete, pointing out bad utilization of existing mechanics is by no means forbidden by Alpha status.

[Oga88]

You should watch this if you like curves. Author of this video is a great narrative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJ6QymV7-o&index=23&list=LLsRuzHr-SmFKDlwReY_Aa8w

[IronjawJimbo]

I think the biggest thing to remember in this thread is that Dwarf Fortress is the product of one man's full time dedication. For anyone who wasn't aware, DF's Dev doesn't work a job (last I checked). He survived on 30-40k in donations per year, and spent just about every bit of his spare time doing nothing but working on DF. He has made it incredibly clear through action (As well as stating it) that DF is his Life's Work AND he has been working on it for roughly 13 years now. One can expect a gap between the two games just from that alone.

I am a huge fan of DF. But I can also say that I've quickly become just as large a fan of Rimworld, and while people can say all day that the story is simply:
1. Build Killbox
2. Win.

There are similar techniques in DF that can kill off a story just as quick
1. Fill entire entrance hall with cage traps
2. Win

or

1. Seal off fortress from outside world with invincible walls once sustainable fort/population is reached
2. Win

or

1. Build "Danger Room" (Militia training room full of crappy wooden spear traps operated by lever that fail to penetrate even clothing which train dwarves at an extreme rate in weapon skill/armor skill)
2. Win.

To really sum up what I'm trying to say.... Give it some time. The game will grow, it will create amazing stories, and what Tynan doesn't add, Mods will (Just like DF. Masterwork Mod is appropriately named   )

P.S. And if you want to generate some !FUN!, You might have to challenge yourself a bit with things like, No Killbox, etc. I'm having a blast without them, but than again, I'm a sucker for micromanagement

[Elixiar]

If there's a tool at a players disposal then using that tool is not 'abusing the game'.

They didn't all hop out of their trenches in WW1 and have a pitched field battle for a reason. Most people are going to use every tool at their disposal to win.

Don't give players auto-turrets and embrasures and then expect them not to be used . Especially considering enemies always naturally funnel into the same spot so there's no reason to spread your defenses out.

I tried Skullwags defense mods and the wave assault mod together.
Interestingly, when tribals or whatever began the attack they would all rush at various parts of the wall. It created an awesome looking spectacle and one where colonists could actually get a shot off before having that sniper tear Leystrats head clean off!

All of this stuff should be behind carefully balanced time walls so you unlock at a fairly similar rate to enemy increase.
Would reduce the auto reliance a lot of people find in kill boxes I think.

Also, if you exploit the game, you can't really justify that it SHOULD be played that way, otherwise it would be a tactic and not an exploit.
As I said earlier, if you choose to play exploiting the game you can't really blame anything other than yourself for a lack of threat. (Falling on own sword)

[Toggle]

I think the 'killbox' tactic is kind of similar to how people complain about campers in FPS's... it's a tactic, it's playing to your advantage generally, people can do whatever they want about it.

[b0rsuk]

I think the 'killbox' tactic is kind of similar to how people complain about campers in FPS's... it's a tactic, it's playing to your advantage generally, people can do whatever they want about it.

I think you would bore of it very quickly if human enemies in FPS game kept falling for camping over, over and over. Or maybe you truly enjoy camping the same spot against bots in Unreal Tournament ?
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I thought about the subject, and figured out 2 more reasons why Rimworld emergence doesn't really take off:

1. Too much control
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Player has too much control over colonists. Until a colonist is dazed or goes berserk, you can draft him and pull away from any potential danger. This is pretty easy because there are much fewer pawns than in Dwarf Fortress. I'm talking about stuff like draft so he doesn't consume beer, draft so he doesn't go through that door, draft so he won't go mining steel when hungry etc.

Animals are harder to control, but once trained with Obedience they can effectively be drafted by drafting their master. And they do only one unpredictable thing: consume stuff without permission. Not much variety there.

Suggestions... Limit drafting. Maybe being drafted lowers morale. Maybe a pawn trait "Pacifist", so he can't be drafted ?

Add more actions animals can do on their own. Make more substances edible (but no sane person would eat them). Substances that don't just kill an animal outright, but might make it sick, vomit, aggressive. Add catnip. Add rivalry over territory and animal beds. Territory marking.

2. Rimworld isn't designed like a "get away from this planet" game.
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I think Rimworld shares too many mechanics with Prison Architect. If Rimworld is about a hostile, scarce world colonist want to get away from then why it's so poor at applying pressure on player ? Does pressure even build up at all ? I think you can control it by keeping colony wealth low.

Many mechanics are about polishing a place and making it more comfortable to live in. Prettier rooms, comfy chairs, beer, carpets, cleaning. There's much, much more of that than resource management. You can grow anything, you can steadily earn money and buy stuff. You can even farm the same patch of land for years without exhausting it. Hydroponics will work forever, and power outages are only temporary. You don't need spare parts for anything.

Best survival games are built around scarce resources and resource management. Rimworld isn't.

The result is that Rimworld appeals to people who want permanent colonies.

[A Friend]

2. Rimworld isn't designed like a "get away from this planet" game.
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I think Rimworld shares too many mechanics with Prison Architect. If Rimworld is about a hostile, scarce world colonist want to get away from then why it's so poor at applying pressure on player ? Does pressure even build up at all ? I think you can control it by keeping colony wealth low.

One suggestion that may help somehow:

Make early game enemies a lot more dangerous and can still be a big threat even if players already have set up defenses. Factions won't just send 1 or 5 man teams with toothpicks, they send out heavily armed fighters that outnumber you 1 to 10.

But to compensate for this, you would be able to interact with them more. One idea is that raiders may perhaps let you live another day if you give them X amount of food/medicine/captured people/valuable resources every week. Since players would be too weak to fight. They may agree on this and go on their merry way. But sooner or later, demands will get higher and higher until players are forced into a corner. Either finding a way to appease the raiders or fight them.

What this would do is hinder your colony progression under the threat of getting wiped out. Raiders may take your valuable steel, leaving you defenseless or powerless, your food, and leave you starving, or force you to capture prisoners, leaving you hated by other factions and perhaps enticing a war. And that's just one damn pirate faction giving you trouble. Imagine nearly everyone wanting something from you.

Interactions would differ between faction types. Basically, more events and choices related to neighboring factions. This is with the assumption that at some point that the factions would be a lot more fleshed out.

TL;DR - Early game hostile factions are made super strong than you and will demand increasing amounts of X resources. Starving you of the much needed items to survive other problems. Forcing you to adapt to the circumstances. You may lose food and turn to cannibalism, lose steel and have less secure defenses, or lose guns and be forced to fight off boomalopes with your bare fists.
Basically Factions having a role in the game.


Another idea that helps the problem on hand is events being connected.

Example 1. Say you just survived a tough raid and are on the process of building up your walls. But suddenly, a manhunter pack arrives! It was apparently attracted by the gunfire. What will you do now?

Normally, your defenses would easily wipe them out, but problem is that its blown to bits. So you would either be forced to do a hasty defense or hide inside.

Example 2. Perhaps the raid is still ongoing, you are losing badly. But a wandering group of mechanoids is detecting a massive concentration of human lifeforms in your area. It comes behind the raiding party and a three way battle ensues between you, the raiders, and the mechs.

Example 3. You survived whatever hell was just thrown at you. Smoke fills the sky as your base is consumed by flames. Luckily, a group of outlanders is passing by and sees your situation. Having good relations with them will make them come and help you put out the flames and carry the wounded to a nearby bed. They may perhaps trade whatever spare medicine and food they may have out of pity.

You get the point. 2, 3, 4 or more events being connected together. Removing the feeling of events being "Power surge? Meh". And the possible combination of events may be able to give a pretty unique story to remember your colony by. I remember my very first one for something similar to this happening. A 1 man shiv raid resulting in a 9 crypto soldier attack where half of my base was destroyed and the remaining survivors are left bleeding on the ground.

Edit: Oh wait, event interconnection has already been suggested a bunch of times. My bad.

[Fluffy (l2032)]

I just want to drop my 2 cents;

Someone said the game needs more resources (e.g. 20 types of stone akin to DF). I really, really hate that idea. The 'extra' stones in DF don't add much besides a bit of realism, and it just makes gameplay more complicated. Complicated does not necessarily equal fun.

As for improving the game, I agree that the way to make the game be more fun for longer is to have interactions between systems and events. A failure in one system creating a failure cascade that really threatens your colony is !FUN!, whereas if it's limited to one system it quickly becomes just a nuisance, or in many cases just inconsequential. There's two things I would like to see to make interactions more meaningful;

1: Better enemy AI. Enemies spreading out, attacking weak points, actively going for power/food supplies with a real strategy, possibly even trying to bait you. Fog of war should really be considered, as it would go a long way towards making AI seem smarter, and counters harder.
2: Proper relationships web. A spouse or child dying should have a deep impact on your colonists, to the point where they might themselves break down. A relationships web can also be a driver of internal conflicts; at some point in the game raids just aren't going to pose that much of a threat, but a row between two (groups of) colonists creating a berserk/riot will always prove a threat and opportunities for emergent gameplay. To that purpose, I'ld like to see some kind of politics system that creates factions within your colony as well. Wether that be religions, guilds, backgrounds, whatever, it'd be nice to have a source of internal conflict.