Defensive Structures

Started by walti921, October 08, 2013, 02:08:27 AM

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walti921

I thought id make a thread for people to discuss defensive structures and what they would like to see implemented.

Personally I'm all for land mines and barbed wire for a start (the classics never die) but at a later stage i would definitely like to see some more advanced and specialized structures like laser turrets and even energy shielding at a very advanced level. of course any beefing up in the power and diversity of defenses means there needs to be an increase in the power of enemies and the variety of threats you can end up facing.

Also maybe some more creative traps... particularly the sort that can catch people alive.   

CommieKazie

+1 for traps.

I think bunkers would be good.  Whether they be wood and debris piled on top of eachother or a full-structure.  Something to give your colonists more cover in the event of a firefight

Tynan

What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

CommieKazie

Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.

Simple ideas that create depth in their implementation are the best.  (Along those lines: I really loved your emergent ecology post.  Very interesting effect of game mechanics)  Also, it's great that you're so involved with the community!

Tynan

Quote from: CommieKazie on October 08, 2013, 02:36:15 AM
Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.

Simple ideas that create depth in their implementation are the best.  (Along those lines: I really loved your emergent ecology post.  Very interesting effect of game mechanics)  Also, it's great that you're so involved with the community!

I wish I could be more so... but time feels very limited. Anyway I suspect you guys want me to actually make a game not hang out on the forums all the time :)
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

walti921

Quote from: Tynan on October 08, 2013, 02:29:28 AM
What's funny is that barbed wire and traps have been in the game for a long time (dating back to when it was a tactical squad game and before). I just need to "reactivate" them. Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow; they're relatively simple really. I really like simple ideas.

YAY barbed wire may seem simple but in my experience with games like this its the combinations of seemingly simplistic elements like barbed wire and auto turrets that can create hours of extremely complex, not to mention bloodthirsty fun.

Also had a question about the games psychology. Ive noticed that raiders flee occasionally is their morale calculated as a group? Or is it an individual thing?

British

Quote from: walti921 on October 08, 2013, 05:54:10 AM
Also had a question about the games psychology. Ive noticed that raiders flee occasionally is their morale calculated as a group? Or is it an individual thing?
Using the Search function with "raiders" and "flee" gave me a few answers, among which:

http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12.msg64#msg64
"The raiders currently flee if they take a certain % of losses; I want them to be a bit less lethal in general so I may reduce this and have them flee in a wider variety of circumstances. Or just, say, kidnap one colonist and leave. The always-lethal-genocidal attacks have a way of cutting stories short."

Enjou

Here's a possible late game defense - Anti-Air/Ship turrets. Expensive to make, perhaps requiring rare or expensive ammunition, these would shoot down pods of incoming raiding parties to reduce the number of pirates that manage to land or have them land with some health reduction. An anti-ship version could deter an attack altogether, though wouldn't have a 100% success rate when fired and have a long cool down or would be inordinately expensive to use every time.

AspenShadow

 ;D Traps! Watching a raider fall into a pit camouflaged with leaves and dirt to take prisoner/hostage is something I could enjoy for days.

Barbed wire is a classic and I'd like to see it introduced, but the question remains in what way are they superior/inferior to walls or sandbags, there should be a pro & con to each, but I'm not seeing a pro to using barbed wire instead of walls as they can be blown up with a grenade just the same.

Maybe if there was a system of your colonists can pass back and forth over barbed wire without getting injured, but an enemy has to take a health-reduction to cross it. Otherwise it's defensive potential would just be an another wall with a small gap to create a choke point.

While it's a bit morally questionable I like the idea of having lethal gas in the game in some way. If not lethal then you could have knockout gas pumped into a room/trap or a grenade to capture prisoners without running the risk of killing them.

Spike

Well, having lived on a farm...  the purpose of barbed wire is to keep livestock from crossing it.  They brush up on it, the barbs prick them, and they back off - but if they really don't care, they will break through (and get ripped up a bit). 

So I would see Barbed Wire as giving no cover, not breaking line of sight, and be a minor deterrent - you can cross it slowly (reduce movement speed 50%) and take no damage, or cross it fast and take damage.  Which might be hard to put in the game, so I'd say just give it a speed reduction - yeah, I like that.

CommieKazie

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 10:23:24 AMBarbed wire is a classic and I'd like to see it introduced, but the question remains in what way are they superior/inferior to walls or sandbags, there should be a pro & con to each, but I'm not seeing a pro to using barbed wire instead of walls as they can be blown up with a grenade just the same.

Walls:
Blocks line of sight, as well as movement.  Used for structures and whatnot.  Unless you put slits in them and reinforce them (concrete bunker-like walls) they are not defensive structures.  Bullets pass though your drywall and insulation with no problem.  The bunker-type walls would not even get scratched by a grenade.

Sandbags:
Cover, slow/restrict movement.  They're only really used to take cover behind and slow/stop bullet/shrapnel movement.  They make you harder to hit and you wouldn't want to put them downrange because you'd be giving your targets cover.
They're also would be good to against flooding to restrict water movement.  (Which might be a reason you'd have sandbags downrange.  Say you're protecting your crops.  Now raiders have a nice spot of cover to work with.  Interesting...)

Barbed Wire:
No restriction to sight, provides no cover.  Restricts movement.  I don't think it should just give a movement debuff, because it'd be pretty hard to cross.  But that also depends on the wire we're making...
Barbed: http://www.moyne.vic.gov.au/page/imageThumbnail.asp?C_Id=1932&preview=
Concertina/razor: http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/2011/10/30/16/Razor_Wire_Fencing_634557395976743179_3.jpg

The second is much more likely to be impassable, and re-direct raider movement.  But why would you build one for livestock, and another for enemies?  Having two nearly identical structures is unnecessary bloat.  Why not just make chain-link fences with a bit of razor wire across the top?  Stops movement unless they cut it, works for livestock and raiders.  Done and done.

And rather than giving every raider a speed debuff, it'd make more sense for one to crouch and cut, and then him and his buddies can pour through the hole.  (Or toss a satchel charge, etc...)

Tynan

Barbed wire would have no effect except to slow all character movement. This is ground-spread military wire.

Keeping animals would use low fences, a separate building. Not that you can keep animals (yet).
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

British

Here's what the barbwire looks like for the time being:

AspenShadow

Quote from: British on October 08, 2013, 01:10:13 PM
Here's what the barbwire looks like for the time being:


Ahhh, I was picturing the concentric coils on the beaches type, not the training field type. Interesting, it could provide new scenarios for raiding.  Can they fire while crossing it at the aforementioned slowed pace?

Also I didn't know you could go over sandbags, haven't seen it in Alpha footage and don't have Pre-Alpha Access until November 1st  :'(

CommieKazie

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
Also I didn't know you could go over sandbags, haven't seen it in Alpha footage and don't have Pre-Alpha Access until November 1st  :'(

I don't know if you're basing your sandbag line off of what I said (because I haven't seen anything else along those lines) but I don't know.  I likewise don't have pre-alpha until November.  I was just basing that description off of reality.  But that doesn't always translate to video games, haha.
(I see no reason characters shouldn't be able to vault sandbags...)