Rational Raiders

Started by LordMunchkin, September 22, 2015, 02:05:04 AM

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LordMunchkin

It'd be nice if raiders actually were rational. What I mean by this is that they only attack you when your defenses are weak compared to your wealth. Make visitors double as spies for their community. This could be mitigated by a hospitality factor. Your neighbors might not want to attack you even if you're weak if you're good people. However, if you're stingy bastard who makes them sleeve in the mud, so to speak, they won't have a problem attacking you when you're weak. Being a truly evil bastard by doing stuff like harvesting their dead or even leaving them rotting in the sun long enough would make them go after at the slightest sign of weakness.

Didact04

You don't need spies to assault a settlement that is clearly inferior to your own. Given the number of pirates that they're cool with throwing at you, the raiders themselves must have populations that number in the thousands. The reason they only send a few at first is because you look like a bunch of shacks out in the middle of fuck-all nowhere that might even be abandoned, thus the one guy with a shank and no clothes that thinks he can just walk in. The tribals take you a little more seriously, but you have guns and they don't.

This isn't war. You don't need to insert secret agents into somewhere barely able to call itself a settlement. You just take people with guns and walk at it and see what you can steal.

There's some fine tuning to the AI in raids needed, sure, but nothing like what you're suggesting, I don't think. Covert ops is entirely unneeded by any faction.

jamesinar

The raiders currently make no sense. They just show up to mirder everyone. That's what the tribals should do. The Pirates should be there to take slaves. The raiders should be there to steal something.

Didact04

They do. They're pirates. They're thugs. Some are slavers, some are not. Some of them show up with melee weapons, which are far more likely to down you than to kill you. Some have guns, and they're probably just there to murder everybody they find and completely gut the compound for what it's worth. That's what pirates do.

Tribals are there for a different reason, probably seeing you as an abomination or as hostile invaders or just straight up aliens and are there to purge you from their land.

It's all pretty sensible stuff, really. Their intentions are as straightforward as their pursuit of them: storm in and attack anything that moves.

whoishigh

#4
Quote from: Didact04 on September 23, 2015, 12:18:12 AM
They do. They're pirates. They're thugs. Some are slavers, some are not. Some of them show up with melee weapons, which are far more likely to down you than to kill you. Some have guns, and they're probably just there to murder everybody they find and completely gut the compound for what it's worth. That's what pirates do.

Tribals are there for a different reason, probably seeing you as an abomination or as hostile invaders or just straight up aliens and are there to purge you from their land.

It's all pretty sensible stuff, really. Their intentions are as straightforward as their pursuit of them: storm in and attack anything that moves.

I see all of this as nothing more than an excuse for hostile factions to remain one dimensional. They come in, they attack, they die or leave. Rinse, repeat.

Regret

kidnappings happen quite regularly actually.
I have also seen raiders burning down my tree-farms far form my colony.

What do you mean one dimensional?

Either way, making hostile faction behaviour more varied is a good idea.

Ectoplasm

#6
The raiders goal always seems to be to assault the colony. Whereas, as others might of mentioned they could;

* Destroy crop fields (I don't mean tickle them with a few random fires and then assault the colony) I mean destroy crop fields. They could even spread salt on higher difficulty settings, forcing the crop field to be relocated. (edit: new research option for either an automated device or the colonists themselves to be able to undo this damage).

* If they stole resources you may have lying about, any resource. I currently have a trade beacon outside my base with 15K silver in it, yet they'd rather run in to the choke of doom than steal the loot and run. High value resources should be a prime target for theft.

* Geothermal generators should be a target. Sure they will try and set them ablaze if they are on route to the colony. But a specific event could be added so they they burn them all down regardless of where on the map they are (balancing / difficulty level not withstanding).

* Cargo drops, again they could steal them.

* They could hunt the animals. The game AI realises your using lots of animals for food.. So a large pack of raiders roams away from the colony hunting them. You gonna sit in base or head out to deal with it?

* More fires (I'm not an arsonist by the way) Smoke them out! tough defenses at the colony? Brush fires! Maybe this could even interfere with production chains, crops could get tainted - even if not close to the brush fire, geothermal generators might get clogged up, filth and dirt everywhere - deeply annoying the pawns. Perhaps the smoke makes it harder for pawns to see, so therefore aim poorly. Maybe animals freak out and couldn't be sent to attack, hell on high difficulty the animals could even go nuts and attack the colonists.

* Booby traps of their own could be left about.

Just a few ideas.

cultist

#7
Raiders doing anything other than outright attacking your base assumes that you have poor defenses. Most players will quickly learn not to leave things lying in spots where hostile NPC's can just run in and grab it. Once you have a proper defense set up, thieves doesn't make any sense, because they have to get past your defenses to get to your stockpile, at which point it just becomes a regular assault.
As for burning crops, I could see tribals maybe doing it. But what would pirates gain from doing that?
Fires? Stone walls stop any and all fires so again, easily countered, unless you are expanding too fast or nor making any defenses.

jamesinar

They currently assault the colony with the intent to murder everyone. What we want is for them to show up for a reason and simply kill anyone who gets in the way.

MultiDavid

Quote from: jamesinar on September 25, 2015, 10:12:42 PM
They currently assault the colony with the intent to murder everyone. What we want is for them to show up for a reason and simply kill anyone who gets in the way.

Well, you could still leave the ''murder everyone'' part of them, they might just want to raid you for shits and giggles, i mean, pirates could do that, also tribals, but the other faction type whose name i forgot ( outcasts, or related to that word ) wouldn't be dumb enough to just send people in for a murder everyone mission.

Didact04

I could see stealing things as a plus for features later. They sack some stuff, they pop some structures open, they shove some valuable materials into their pockets (gold, silver, plasteel, yknow, whatever) and hit the road flipping the bird over their shoulders. Alternatively, sappers could infiltrate with the express purpose of stealing something very valuable and beating it immediately after, because the place is armed and has defences in place and destroying it all would take far, far too much effort. Why raze the entire colony when you can grab some stuff and leave to make it worth it?

But beyond that, they'd of course defend themselves. If they hit the defenses or the militia arrives in force, what else can they do but dig in where they can and return fire? And when you're firing, you might as well keep firing till there's nothing left to fire at, because then you know you're safe. At some point, 'murder everything' becomes the only feasible option, and frankly a fully expected one. If they empty the colony, they can utterly ransack the place without a care in the world.

So yes, theft would seem like a good addition to the game; it would make players pay much more attention to their richness levels. However, raiders as they are are effectively perfect for their role...which is 'raiders'. Plain and simple.

This isn't rocket science. It's piracy. Sometimes murder is the only sensible choice.

Wex

You know, thievery isn't to discard, as an option. Why resort to violence (and a lot of death) if you can use stealth, sneak in, grab something valuable, and sneak out? This will give you a reason to suspect of every visitor of the colony, and if you spot them, you could just arrest them for no relationship penalty.
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
    Harlan Ellison

tylers2001

Wex I must agree with you that seems like an awesome game mechanic.
There is a difference between me and you. I'm the one still standing.