Automated Units.

[Galileus]

I don't like the idea of doubling population in robots. Mostly because it creates a meta in which you MUST use robots. And that is ugly

It all depends on what you want to allow robots to do. If it's only repairs, then sure - 20 works fine, you just adjust your numbers in the formula and you have max efficiency around 15. If they are able to build, harvest or mine however, 20 is way too much - even if robots would be half as good at these tasks, this is still 50% increase in ability to build and leads to problems with balance - forcing you to balance for scenario in which player can field ~40 drones if you want to design a costly building. And this means you would force players to use robots. It is possible, but I really dislike that option. And then comes the whole vector of rimworlds not depending hugely on technology - being able to leave too much work for robots or drones would go against the feel of the game in my opinion.

But this is all on paper, obviously - in the end more = less Well, literally. More robots is the same as less robots until you decide on their work speed and cost. I would prefer less robots with better stats - it's not only easier on AI, but also makes every single robot more valuable and allows for better control of amount of robots player can possibly field (in the formula, the larger is your max efficiency number, the bigger is standard deviation you need to calculate for). You can still go for many smaller robots to the same effect - idea of charging stations being dependent on number of slots used still works it's magic in soft-capping it.

As for the amount of charging stations themselves, I would actually go for one station = one charging slot; with amount of active slots counted globally (as they still drain from global power pool). There is also a possibility to play around with it as research. For example, you would have three separate research paths, two research items deep each, that exclude each other. You start with lvl 1 of efficiency, size or capacity upgrade and would have to choose one:
- efficiency would lower the amount of slots actually counted by 10% at lvl1 and 20% at lvl2 (so instead of 10 slot used, game would see 9 on lvl1 or 8 on lvl2)
- size would allow to build bigger stations, able to service more drones (so from 1x2 with one drone to 1x2 with 2 drones on lvl1 and 2x2 with 6 drones on lvl2)
- capacity would increase the capacity of batteries by 10% on lvl1 and 20% on lvl2 (from 5h of work to 5,5h on lvl1 and 6h on lvl2)

[Untrustedlife]

Hmmm, drones. I've thought about it, but what kind of difference you are suggesting? They are basically robots with much more specific tasks or just smaller size.

By the way, on the M.U.L.E. part, i think we should add a research that involves the construction of an A.I. Command Center. Where you can only have so much robots. So........ I don't know how to make this even more balanced, but eventually we will have A.I. nevertheless.

A command center?

I still think what me and galileus came up with is the best most fitting option for this game. This game is more about  the story .


Here is what me and gallileus came up with

Drones are limited, small (and we want it this way) no big powerful robots, but the player should come to attach to them and they will work as that cutesy element. They will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency, read page 3 of this thread to get the rest of the info, here are a few highlights.

I believe that if the player gets to name the bot, if the bot feels like it has personality. (and just plain being cute, and being limited severely in the jobs they can do) (literally only 3 of the jobs hauling ,cleaning, repairing), and can only be assigned to one job (when they are built) the player will come to attach to the robot, especially if they are still extremely expensive to make and maintain and to keep) (and are therefore extremely hard to replace)

Actually it could, but you need to realize this very crucial aspect - robots (or drones or any other name that sounds better than robots ) can't really be a boon of any sort to colonists. If the drones are simply not worth it (too costly, too slow, too bad), then not only they can actually work as that cutesy element, but also provide a choice to get rid of the busywork (like repairs) at the cost of efficiency. That leaves drones from in-game standpoint completely useless, because the profit is "out of the game" - available only to player.

This could be very easily reflected by in game description, with something like: "Drones are not a popular choice in the rim, as they are too costly for the quality of work they provide. It's simply faster and cheaper to just do all the work yourself - and yet you can find drones every now and again, owned by people that are both too rich and too lazy to care about bothersome things like work or efficiency".

Gallileus mentioned as-well that having a colony full of robots doing all of the work does not fit this games style.


Note that:

Also, there is still this one huge, gaping hole I can't get over - if we can build robots, sell robots, buy robots, bathe in robots and consume robots from the lack of different food... why does rim worlds exist again? Ain't the idea of manual labor and need to rely more on oneselves than on technology the very core of Rimworld/Firefly?

I agree with him.



They should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.
This is the colonists job. And it makes sure colonists are still extremely important and the tension of the game is still there, to successfully fight raiders you have to put colonists in danger. Otherwise there is no tension, which this game relies heavily on, especially with cassandra classic.

This game, is about hard work, having robots do all the work goes against the wild west type spirit of this game.

Being unable to have a colony full of robots, keeps robots /colonists important and makes the drones a thing the player can connect to. Like a colonist.

Drones will also give happiness boost to the colonists (the drones in this case are treated like pets, who do work for you as-well.

[kdfsjljklgjfg]

They will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency

They should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.

So the colonists can mass-produce Roombas?

[Galileus]

I don't know why I haven't thought of it before, but I know perfect reference for how drones should look like

Dwarf Gekkos from MGR-R!

This guys are uber-cute, their design allows for amazing amount of emotions and... well... dancing..., their voices are extremely cute and until you get to certain VR missions in  which you learn to completely HATE EVERY ONE OF THESE BASTARDS!!!!!1111156345hax

Sorry... so, so sorry...

[Untrustedlife]

They will also be able to get rid of some of the busy work (in this case, repairs,cleaning,hauling) at the cost of efficiency

They should not be allowed to build,fight,grow things, or mine.

So the colonists can mass-produce Roombas?

Roombas?

The drones would be expensive to maintain charge and build, no reason to mass produce them unless you have a ridiculous amount of resources in which case, yes.

[Galileus]

Of course RimWorld version would need to be properly clunky

... and not look like a headcrap ^^ Shuddap, I did it in 10 minutes!

The drones would be expensive to maintain charge and build, no reason to mass produce them unless you have a ridiculous amount of resources in which case, yes.

That's what I love about The Formula. The Formula gives you the ability to mass-build the headcrabs, I mean the dwarf gekkos, I mean drones; but at the same the more you have - the less of a constant boost they are and more of a timed ability. The limit exists not in lack of ability to build more, but in their dynamic - more roombas darn it! drones behave differently to low, max efficiency amount of drones.

[attachment deleted by admin: too old]

[Tynan]

Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

The design rationale had several parts.

First, it lets you expand the colony without adding more people. I've always wanted to keep a smaller cast of characters. But when you're limited to 12 people, it can be hard to have the enjoyable experience of growing a really big colony. But if that numerical growth is achieved largely by robots, you can have a big bustling wealthy colony while not overloading it with a hundred characters who players won't know individually.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

The other reason is because it creates some strategy and variation in your capacities for work and fighting. Like a more extreme version of the work limitations on colonists. You could end up with configurations of robots that give the colony different advantages and disadvantages and add variation that way.

Also, combat robots can add all sorts of arbitrary variations to fights. Especially if they're randomized like DF forgotten beasts.

As for the graphics, I'm afraid they'd have to be 2D, vectorized, tiny, and lacking legs (because RW doesn't animate characters).

And no reason you couldn't name them Though I think the game might generate names for them.

[Galileus]

Huh, so my whole reasoning behind robot limitation was wrong. Well, is human to err.

Then again, lack of dancing cute robots is a horrible design decision. Dancing robots are foundation of any cultured society and an expectation, I even believe few presidents won their campaigns by promising dancing robots. Horrible, much disappoint!

[Ender]

Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

Sweet! i love the ability to, eventually have such diverse ways of playing RW. its extremely intriguing.

[DFplayer]

You think a robot would be easier to build then a solar panel and a food dispenser?

The AI and hardware required to build a robot is beyond that of a food dispenser that simply squashes things and dispenses the squashed stuff (which i bet is what the "nutrient paste" dispenser does.. It is also beyond the bits of silicone needed to make a solar panel. And the AI is beyond that of an auto turret.

It depends on the robot.

A cleaning robot like we already have in real life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6EsI4BFHFk) would be pretty simple.

I mean, honestly, I can build something like that with lego. (except for the vacuum part) .

I actually built more advanced robots then that in lego.

Because it is alot more then just a "walking autoturret"

How?

Our current ingame turrets are already capable to differ between friend and enemies.

Then why is it that modern humanity has turrets that can acquire targets, but not robots that run around shooting and acquiring targets?

You need to be able to path find in real space. This can be done, requires years upon years upon years of research, not to mention allowing them to have orders to stay around and patrol.Avoiding friendly fire.

We already have prototypes of automatic cars driving in the real world, in real streets with other cars. They are able to avoid deers and other obstacles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J17Qgc4a8xY

What do you guess will be possible in another 10 years?

It will take more then 10 years till we are able to colonize space, what do you guess we will be capable of by then?

Rimworld plays in a future were we are already trading in space! So, in a future were we already have colonized space and have space trading fleets.

We are currently building driverless cars, there's a fair chance that we live long enough to see the automation of traffic in the real world, but we definitely wont live long enough to see space trading, just to give an small vision of how advanced robotics will probably be in the era of rimworld.

The turrets they build in rimworld aren't just able to shoot at someone they see, they're also perfectly able to differ between friends and enemies and aim properly. That is amazing, you already need some highly advanced artificial intelligence to do that. You know, we have face detection for cameras and they tend to make mistakes, sometimes not detecting a face or detecting one where there isn't one. But the AI of the turrets? They detect people, even in the dark, and they can differ them, can even detect if they are a threat! And they never make a single mistake.

Not even that, they are even capable of finding out when an enemy is unable to fight! They can freaking differ between enemies standing still and an enemy that passed out by pain or blood loss, thats something that not even humans are able to do. (not in the middle of a fight and meters away)

And they didn't made this in a laboratory, they made it in the desert! In a single day!!! A single person! What could two of them build together in a week?



If you are still worried about path finding, we could make it so that robots will only be able to move in flat terrain / metal underground, in that case they don't have to deal with bypassing plants or bigger stones.

Making a robot on wheels move on a flat surface and avoid colliding into walls is pretty easy (honestly, you can do that with a lego robot kit and some basic programming...)

As turrets are already capable of aiming at enemies, all you need to do is to let them drive into the direction it aims, thats pretty easy too.

Making them seek cover or others advanced strategies is a whole other story. (i personally believe that by the time we do space trading AI will be smart enough to do so)

Its more complicated in real life scenarios, for example a robot shouldn't hurt civilians and enemies might hide in houses or behind civilians etc. and no Ai is currently smart enough to deal with that. But such things are irrelevant in rimworld.

Also, Tynan could make robotos purposely dumb or make mistakes, or falling over at times...

Edit:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkrzdj9tA2I

humanoid robots playing football. Take note that these are basically toys made for fun. Yes, they are clumsy and slow, but in the next 20 years...?


Take a look at this one:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww

This one is not a toy, its a 4 legged robot capable to move on ice, snow and debris, run uphills etc.

Again, this is what we have today. Actually, that video is 6 years old, its what we had 6 years ago. Rimworld takes place in far future.

[Untrustedlife]

DFPLAYER read the whole conversation before replying to me.
Its all been cleared up already.

Tynan chimed in and said:

Funny enough, robots like this are a long-standing idea for RW.

The design rationale had several parts.

First, it lets you expand the colony without adding more people. I've always wanted to keep a smaller cast of characters. But when you're limited to 12 people, it can be hard to have the enjoyable experience of growing a really big colony. But if that numerical growth is achieved largely by robots, you can have a big bustling wealthy colony while not overloading it with a hundred characters who players won't know individually.

There are a few things robots couldn't do, but not that many. You could, if you wanted, make a colony of like 2-3 people and a ton of robots.

The other reason is because it creates some strategy and variation in your capacities for work and fighting. Like a more extreme version of the work limitations on colonists. You could end up with configurations of robots that give the colony different advantages and disadvantages and add variation that way.

Also, combat robots can add all sorts of arbitrary variations to fights. Especially if they're randomized like DF forgotten beasts.

As for the graphics, I'm afraid they'd have to be 2D, vectorized, tiny, and lacking legs (because RW doesn't animate characters).

And no reason you couldn't name them Though I think the game might generate names for them.

please delete your post so that people realize the argument has been over for days.


Also note that faster then light travel and giant trade fleets don't exist in the rim verse.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

And note that due to the "Gulf between stars"
So some haven't even reached OUR tech level.
Or have completely weird tech levels where they know certain things but not others.

I hate it wen people try to continue arguments when they have been over with for days.

[DFplayer]

DFPLAYER read the whole conversation before replying to me.
Its all been cleared up already.

I did. It stopped when you said that you think its gamebreaking and unrealistic, and this is your opinion and thats it.

I say its not even slightly unrealistic, its something we will do in the next 50 years, maybe in the next 100 years. (imho thats a modest estimate)

Tynan chimed in and said:

Yes, im not arguing if they should be part of the game, but if it were realistic.

Just because something is realistic or unrealistic doesn't mean its fun or not gameplay wise.

please delete your post so that people realize the argument has been over for days.

No, the topic of this thread is "automated units", discussing if it is realistic that colonists are cappable of building them is a valid discussion under this topic. Its not Off-Topic.

That Tynan wants to include them in the game or that you don't want to defend your opinion anymore doesn't change that.

If you don't want to discuss this anymore, thats fine. This Forum is public and other who read this may also think that its unrealistic or want to discuss this, i just wanted to state that we will probably be capable of buildings such robots loooong before we will be able to trade in space.

Also note that faster then light travel and giant trade fleets don't exist in the rim verse.

Still, a space trading ship and space combat is something that is far away.

You can't trade in space if there aren't enough people in space to trade with.

Ingame we are stranded in a rimworld, still there are many travelers, raiders and space ships coming by. It seems like a huge part of humans does already live outside of earth. Actually, i believe that by colonizing the galactic core, there are more people living outside one earth then on earth. (there are multiple space ships flying by in a single year, space is freaking huge and we live on the rim, that wouldn't happen if there weren't quite a lot of trading ships...)

Currently, its a huge success to send a probe to mars!

Its not just sending people into space, but to the core of  the galaxy, and so many that they are independent and have a running economy, colonizing other planets.

These people are there for multiple generations of human life, especially if we can't fly faster then light.

An AI that is slightly smarter then our current AIs in reallife is nothing against that.

And note that due to the "Gulf between stars"
So some haven't even reached OUR tech level.

We live in a rim world of the galactic core, beside of slaves, everyone who visits us does at least have the technology to travel in space. For a long distance.

Maybe they just captured a ship, but they are versed enough to fly it and keep it in a good state.

And so do our first three colonists if at least on of them was flying or even owning the spacecraft that crashed. Or had any job on the spacecraft.

So, everyone who voluntary visits us is in possession of technology far beyond ours. (a space ship. A space ship thats capable to provide enough food, room and oxygen to fly to the rim of the galactic core.)

[Untrustedlife]

Actually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

also
The rim isnt in the galactic core good sir.

The rimworld is a RIMWORLD.
Away from large populations, yes, sure people are visiting us in spaceships, but many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub

actually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

Thee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

You should read the ENTIRE THING, but i will quote a portion of it to point out that your concept of rimworlds is flawed.

In this universe, cultures do not always progress forward technologically the way many science fiction worlds assume they will. Often, a culture will blow itself up or suffer plagues and other great catastrophes. These regression events send them “back to the stone age”.
Because this happens regularly, people in the RimWorld universe come from extremely varied technology levels. Some are stone-age tribespeople. Some are medieval farmers and lords. Some are industrial-era politicans and bankers and riflemen. Some are information-age programmers or astronauts. And some are from eras beyond our own.
There is a maximum level of technology to the people you might encounter in RimWorld. At this level, advanced genetic engineering and AI, autonomous intelligent robots, and massive computer power are possible. However, worlds that develop beyond this point enter a mysterious “transcendent” state from which no recognizable human emerges.
People can have and use technologies from levels beyond their own. On an industrial-level world (like the rimworld on which the game takes place), most people use gunpowder-fired weapons, fossil fuel engines, and other familiar machines. But anyone can stumble upon ultra-advanced technologies in an ancient ruin, or in a crashed spacecraft, or among the wares of a trader. These items are nearly impossible to manufacture for the people of RimWorld. They are incredibly valuable and very poorly understood.
World types
Worlds in the RimWorld universe can be classified generally according to their level of sociotechnological development.
Animal worlds - Planets with no people. Either everyone died, or the planet was seeded by terraforming robots and nobody arrived.
Tribe worlds - Populated planets without agriculture. People live in tribes without writing or any but the most primitive technologies.
Medieval worlds - Similar to Earth in the 17th century down to the agricultural revolution. Dominated be feudalism and social backwardness. Planets can stay in this state for millennia.
Industrial worlds - Similar to Earth in the 19th century.
Rimworlds - Distant and isolated planets lacking in strong central government and low in population density. These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower. Because they’re not homogenized by a central government, they tend to see a lot of interaction between people of different technology levels, as travelers crashland or ancient closed valut communities open up.
Midworlds - The most familiar kind of world to a modern reader. These places are much like present-day Earth.
Urbworlds - Super-high density planets dominated by cities. Their population growth outstripped their sociotechnological development, so they tend to be overcrowded, polluted, violent places.
Glitterworlds - Very advanced and peaceful cultures. The peak of recognizable human society in terms of health, art, technology, and human rights.
Toxic worlds - Worlds destroyed by pollution or warfare, but still inhabitable at a low level.
Marbles - Worlds utterly destroyed by atomic fire. They’re called marbles because their surfaces have been “glassed”. This level of holocaust is rare. On some of these worlds, people can walk outdoors for a time without dying. None of them harbor life long-term.
Transcendent worlds - Worlds inhabited by people who have become something beyond human and unknowable. No “people” live here; these planets aren’t planets any more in the traditional sense; they’re more like giant computers.

[DFplayer]

Actually no, the conversation did not end when i said that, in fact it became a great productive conversation about DRONES. Then tynan chimed in and said yes they will be in game. Like i said you should have read after that.

But the conversation about whether or not its realistic stopped. Afterwards started a new conversation.

One of the disadvantages of a bulletin board is that posts are sorted in chronological order instead of their thematic, but i can't change that.

Its still a valid discussion under the main topic of this thread.

actually read this please.
You obviously didn't.

I did, i can't see why you'd think otherwise.

But it seems like you never questioned what you read.

but many civilizations OF HUMANS. Don't have the tech for space travel. The civilization on earth has fallen, thousands of years ago.

Guess why i said that everyone who is VISITING us has the technology of space travel and, more important, our first three colonists do! I never said everyone has, just the people visiting us and our three starting colonists.

Except all these people visiting us lived their whole life on the planet we stranded on. (However, there are event's about people crashlanding on our rimworld and im sure that raiders will attack with energy weapons at some point.)

Thee is a reason the people on OUR planet in game are still condemmed to guns and not energy rifles (energy rifles are extremely rare and hard to come by).

I say its simply because of gameplay and style (like steampunk, its a cool but unrealistic mix of modern and middle age).

Realistically it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

People that can travel in space definitely wouldn't rely on middle age weapons.

I mean, honestly, come on.

A space ship flying trough space, to a rimworld far away from civilization, to sell you gunpowder weapons of the last millennium?! Does this sound like an economic business model for you? They have higher costs for fuel then what these primitives could offer you. If these ships can't travel faster then light, how much profit will you make by traveling for some hundred of years to sell freaking gunpowder weapons?!

Even sending these weapons via some kind of torpedos to a definite location on a rimworld (making sure that they don't get destroyed by entering atmosphere or landing impact!!!!) is more expensive then anything a primitive colony could offer these weapon dealers. (and, again, the technology for doing so is more advanced then anything we have today.)

And what do we sell these gun dealers? Pistols and selfmade nutrient paste... Wow, thats definitely a good deal for them! They own high tech of the next millennial and trade pistols with pistols... Also I guess that if they are capable of traveling for hundred of years they made sure that they won't suffer by starvation at any point, and they give you far more for pistols then for nutrient paste, so it's not like they desperately need our nutrient paste.

If we had anything useful to offer them, why shouldn't these slave traders simply jump down to our colony and kill us all with some advanced weapons and then take whatever they need? Or at least try to threaten and gouge us?

You know, even a modern helicopter gunship from our current realworld could easily conquer and destroy our little colony without damaging the stockpiles.That kind of helicopter that has mounted multiple rockets with a range of multiple kilometers could easily deal with our turrets. Or some remote controlled attack drones the us uses in 2014.

Or how about gas attacks? Or Radiation? Everything could be looted afterwards. If the colonists have to rely on pistols, it shouldn't be much of a problem to kill them and take whatever these primitives could offer you. The colonists are usually armed with nothing more then a handful of pistols when the first slave or weapon trader arrives.

It simply doesn't make sense, if you managed to own a spacecraft more advanced then anything we could build in the next hundred of years, it shouldn't be much of a problem to gather a gunship or attack drones from 2014.

If there are people building these spacecrafts, it shouldn't be much of a problem for these people to build some weapons from 2014. Not just rifles but bombs, gunships, atomic weapons, lethal gas bombs ....

Flying light years (!) trough space to sell gunpowder weapons is ridiculous. But its fun Gameplay wise. Having Energy rifles that could shoot over the complete map without missing would suck and no one would want that, no matter if it is realistic.

Edit:

These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower.

Yea, these automatic turrets are quite beyond industrial technology, so is the mining equipment of our colonists. And the spaceship they crashlanded with.

Or the communication technology to contact spaceships from far away. Its not a satellite, its something they built in the desert. In a single day. They didn't even needed the research lab for it. Its not even big. And doesn't need that much energy - 200 watt. 50 watt more then a standing lamp.

Its never told how far away these trading ships are, but i believe that they don't orbit the rimworld - planet and just fly somewhat nearby. Except they really want to trade pistols with primitives or there is indeed some advanced city on our planet that would justify to spent fuel and time to get into orbit and leave it afterwards...

They can build a communication device for space (that also detects spacecrafts) that doesn't need much more energy then a lamp and is quite small, on a desert.

The only thing that is industrial tech are the weapons and some buildings like solar panels, beds and lamps.

Oh, and the doors don't look like industrial tech either.

And i'm quite sure that the drones we'll built at some point in the game will most likely be equipped with industrial tech weapons too, no matter if this would be realistic .

[Galileus]

DFplayer - I seriously skipped through your text-wall, not bothering to read, because:

A) Native Americans used gunpowder based weaponry with much success.
B) Games are not made to be realistic, because they would be boring.
C) A door-to-door salesman could very easily chop people with a fireaxe without much fail, and it doesn't seem unrealistic to me that it doesn't happen constantly.
D) A medium sized company can easily buy a big car or even a boat or a plane, but getting a armed sloop of war or even an outdated rocket launcher is not so easy of an deal, not to mention getting armed and fight-capable armored vehicle.

All in all, your reasoning is - ironically, seeing how you keep saying "unrealistic" - rather shallow and unrealistic ^^'