more intuitive hydroponics and growth.

[toric]

i remember  a comment by tynan stating that he had put the resting period for plants into the game to prevent sun lamps from being OP. i personally think that while the resting period may be realistic, it is extremely unintuitive. another little niggle i have is that hydroponics have very little use, unless you are miles deep in a mountain, as otherwise you can simply roof off dirt and use sun lamps.

a solution to both of these problems would be to remove the sun lamp, the plant resting period, and making hydroponics make their own light for the plants. (maybe a purplish glow, as that is the frequency used by IRL indoor farms.) of course, this could come with an increase in hydroponics power consumption. this means that, while you could grow plants with soil at night, you would have to use normal lamps, and accept the lower growth rate. if you really want to grow plants indoors, you must use hydroponics, as that is what they are meant for. any thoughts on this idea?

(also, would anyone be interested in modding this in as a proof of concept? I'm still struggling with xml modding.)

[MeowRailroad]

I think that if hydroponic basins lose power, the plants should just stop growing and after 1-2 weeks die if they are in the cold becuase IRL they are just a tub of water for the plants to be in, basically. Also if berries or fruit-bearing plants that are ready to harvest die, they should drop the fruit, as IRL if you have an apple tree that suddenly dies, the apples don't just disappear.

[toric]

I think that if hydroponic basins lose power, the plants should just stop growing and after 1-2 weeks die if they are in the cold becuase IRL they are just a tub of water for the plants to be in, basically. Also if berries or fruit-bearing plants that are ready to harvest die, they should drop the fruit, as IRL if you have an apple tree that suddenly dies, the apples don't just disappear.

maybe not weeks, but definitely enough to survive a solar flare.

[asanbr]

i remember  a comment by tynan stating that he had put the resting period for plants into the game to prevent sun lamps from being OP. i personally think that while the resting period may be realistic, it is extremely unintuitive. another little niggle i have is that hydroponics have very little use, unless you are miles deep in a mountain, as otherwise you can simply roof off dirt and use sun lamps.

a solution to both of these problems would be to remove the sun lamp, the plant resting period, and making hydroponics make their own light for the plants. (maybe a purplish glow, as that is the frequency used by IRL indoor farms.) of course, this could come with an increase in hydroponics power consumption. this means that, while you could grow plants with soil at night, you would have to use normal lamps, and accept the lower growth rate. if you really want to grow plants indoors, you must use hydroponics, as that is what they are meant for. any thoughts on this idea?

(also, would anyone be interested in modding this in as a proof of concept? I'm still struggling with xml modding.)

Maybe they are intended to have little use. Or maybe used for different player flavors.
When I started playing I thought hydroponics was super cool and used it a lot. Then I learned to wall in earth and build a non-hydroponics indoor farm which saved lots of power. Also using rich soil which gives the same bonus as hydroponics as far as I can tell, without the drawbacks (power issue + instant death on solar flare).
On one map with permafrost (ice sheet) it was really hard to find earth to grow in, then I was saved by hydroponics. But I almost never use them nowadays. It's situational.

[toric]

i remember  a comment by tynan stating that he had put the resting period for plants into the game to prevent sun lamps from being OP. i personally think that while the resting period may be realistic, it is extremely unintuitive. another little niggle i have is that hydroponics have very little use, unless you are miles deep in a mountain, as otherwise you can simply roof off dirt and use sun lamps.

a solution to both of these problems would be to remove the sun lamp, the plant resting period, and making hydroponics make their own light for the plants. (maybe a purplish glow, as that is the frequency used by IRL indoor farms.) of course, this could come with an increase in hydroponics power consumption. this means that, while you could grow plants with soil at night, you would have to use normal lamps, and accept the lower growth rate. if you really want to grow plants indoors, you must use hydroponics, as that is what they are meant for. any thoughts on this idea?

(also, would anyone be interested in modding this in as a proof of concept? I'm still struggling with xml modding.)

Maybe they are intended to have little use. Or maybe used for different player flavors.
When I started playing I thought hydroponics was super cool and used it a lot. Then I learned to wall in earth and build a non-hydroponics indoor farm which saved lots of power. Also using rich soil which gives the same bonus as hydroponics as far as I can tell, without the drawbacks (power issue + instant death on solar flare).
On one map with permafrost (ice sheet) it was really hard to find earth to grow in, then I was saved by hydroponics. But I almost never use them nowadays. It's situational.

thats exactly what I'm trying to fix.

[DoctorNick]

As someone who's dabbled with hydroponics a little bit in real life there's a couple ways I'd modify them for the game.

When broken down to its most basic level a hydroponics system consists of a soilless media for the plants to grow in, a tank of nutrient solution to feed the plants, a pump to on a timed basis deliver the solution to the plant roots, and some fiddly bits like ph sensors.

That doesn't require that much power to run, assuming you're using the sun as your light source.

So the changes I'd make are these:

• It's been suggested before, but there really, REALLY should be a way to build walled in but roofed areas that have transparent roofs for greenhouses.
• Solar flares or other losses of power shouldn't instantly kill the plants, there should be a leeway of a few days before everything dies.
• Hydroponics should use considerably less power than they do now.
• As an upgrade that you need to research and that would increase the cost of the hydroponic basin they should have a self-lighting version which requires a lot more power.
• Another part of the self-lighting idea could be a research upgrade to switch from fluorescent lighting to more efficient LED lights giving less power consumption for the basin requiring again a bit more resources to manufacture.
• Finally as an add-on there could be aquaculture fish tanks, I mention them here because they could either be used standalone or if placed next to a basin will change the setup from hydroponics to aquaponics (Lets say a fish tank is a 2X2 structure, and it can connect to four basins, just to BS some numbers out of my butthole).

Ok, so about game balance because I know Tynan doesn't want hydroponics to become magic no effort food factories.  The biggest thing for that would probably be to make it so the basins each require a bit of daily labor to keep running.  So each day or so a colonist with the growing skill would have to come by and check on them.  This is reasonable both in game for balance and holds true to real life as well because hydroponics do actually need to be kept track of pretty closely to make sure things like the PH is still where it should be, the balance of nutrients in the water is correct, check for pests, so on so forth.  Colonists with low growing skill would take longer of course, and very low skilled colonists (say 5 growing or less) will have a very rare chance of going "Oops, I killed the plants by mistake."

With the aquaculture fish tank the fish obviously need to be fed, the benefit you get from raising them is they give another food source for lavish meals.  Obviously they should eat more food than fish you get out of the system, but as fish are actually really efficient animals I'd argue it shouldn't be more than something like 1.5:1 or 2:1.  Also before anyone says it, YES I know that eggs can already be used for lavish meals but A) more variety can't hurt and B) right now things like your dogs can eat freaking hay (!!!) and I'm presuming that this is something that's going to change eventually so having an alternative* meat source is a Good Thing.  As a further bit of game balance the fish tank should also require a bit of daily fiddling from a colonist to keep it going.

When putting a fish tank next to hydroponics to create an aquaponic system the benefits should be that the fish add nutrients to the water for the plants and the plants clean the water for the fish, so both would have a slightly reduced daily required labor.

*As a final footnote, I'd also argue that colonists should eventually get bored of eating the same thing every single day eventually getting a debuff for the tenth day in a row of eating 'Simple meal, ingredients: potatoes'.  This would encourage growing multiple crops and hunting/raising different kinds of animals to keep variety up.

[zlongshark]

I'm currently growing hydroponics at home and i agree with all of your suggestions. I've made some of these suggestions before about aquaponics and also a larger range of plants to grow in the system.

As someone who's dabbled with hydroponics a little bit in real life there's a couple ways I'd modify them for the game.

When broken down to its most basic level a hydroponics system consists of a soilless media for the plants to grow in, a tank of nutrient solution to feed the plants, a pump to on a timed basis deliver the solution to the plant roots, and some fiddly bits like ph sensors.

That doesn't require that much power to run, assuming you're using the sun as your light source.

So the changes I'd make are these:

• It's been suggested before, but there really, REALLY should be a way to build walled in but roofed areas that have transparent roofs for greenhouses.
• Solar flares or other losses of power shouldn't instantly kill the plants, there should be a leeway of a few days before everything dies.
• Hydroponics should use considerably less power than they do now.
• As an upgrade that you need to research and that would increase the cost of the hydroponic basin they should have a self-lighting version which requires a lot more power.
• Another part of the self-lighting idea could be a research upgrade to switch from fluorescent lighting to more efficient LED lights giving less power consumption for the basin requiring again a bit more resources to manufacture.
• Finally as an add-on there could be aquaculture fish tanks, I mention them here because they could either be used standalone or if placed next to a basin will change the setup from hydroponics to aquaponics (Lets say a fish tank is a 2X2 structure, and it can connect to four basins, just to BS some numbers out of my butthole).

Ok, so about game balance because I know Tynan doesn't want hydroponics to become magic no effort food factories.  The biggest thing for that would probably be to make it so the basins each require a bit of daily labor to keep running.  So each day or so a colonist with the growing skill would have to come by and check on them.  This is reasonable both in game for balance and holds true to real life as well because hydroponics do actually need to be kept track of pretty closely to make sure things like the PH is still where it should be, the balance of nutrients in the water is correct, check for pests, so on so forth.  Colonists with low growing skill would take longer of course, and very low skilled colonists (say 5 growing or less) will have a very rare chance of going "Oops, I killed the plants by mistake."

With the aquaculture fish tank the fish obviously need to be fed, the benefit you get from raising them is they give another food source for lavish meals.  Obviously they should eat more food than fish you get out of the system, but as fish are actually really efficient animals I'd argue it shouldn't be more than something like 1.5:1 or 2:1.  Also before anyone says it, YES I know that eggs can already be used for lavish meals but A) more variety can't hurt and B) right now things like your dogs can eat freaking hay (!!!) and I'm presuming that this is something that's going to change eventually so having an alternative* meat source is a Good Thing.  As a further bit of game balance the fish tank should also require a bit of daily fiddling from a colonist to keep it going.

When putting a fish tank next to hydroponics to create an aquaponic system the benefits should be that the fish add nutrients to the water for the plants and the plants clean the water for the fish, so both would have a slightly reduced daily required labor.

*As a final footnote, I'd also argue that colonists should eventually get bored of eating the same thing every single day eventually getting a debuff for the tenth day in a row of eating 'Simple meal, ingredients: potatoes'.  This would encourage growing multiple crops and hunting/raising different kinds of animals to keep variety up.

[Duban]

i remember  a comment by tynan stating that he had put the resting period for plants into the game to prevent sun lamps from being OP. i personally think that while the resting period may be realistic, it is extremely unintuitive. another little niggle i have is that hydroponics have very little use, unless you are miles deep in a mountain, as otherwise you can simply roof off dirt and use sun lamps.

a solution to both of these problems would be to remove the sun lamp, the plant resting period, and making hydroponics make their own light for the plants. (maybe a purplish glow, as that is the frequency used by IRL indoor farms.) of course, this could come with an increase in hydroponics power consumption. this means that, while you could grow plants with soil at night, you would have to use normal lamps, and accept the lower growth rate. if you really want to grow plants indoors, you must use hydroponics, as that is what they are meant for. any thoughts on this idea?

(also, would anyone be interested in modding this in as a proof of concept? I'm still struggling with xml modding.)

If you remove sun lamps you would no longer be able to grow indoors without hydroponics. This would make ice sheet maps literally unplayable as you wouldn't be able to grow indoors until hydroponics completes. Again, sun lamps are useful whether you have hydroponics or not and should remain that way.

No thank you.

[toric]

ill admit, i has never played ice sheets before, but aren't they supposed to be really hard? can you not get by with hunting until you rush hydroponics? (as in before geothermal power?)

[Regret]

I love these ideas.

[zlongshark]

ill admit, i has never played ice sheets before, but aren't they supposed to be really hard? can you not get by with hunting until you rush hydroponics? (as in before geothermal power?)

Yeah ice sheet is very difficult, it took me a couple of start before i got it right. the first thing i do i build a steel room around a geothermal point and start an fire in indoors. sometimes you are lucky enough to get a bit of soil around your exhaust point which you can grow crops from.

Also if you get your hands on alpacas helps a lot because you can use their wool to make warm clothes.

[Limdood]

you say that hydroponics have very little use outside of deep mountains.

Semi-true (very inhospitable climates also use hydroponics).  Consider though, that a LOT of people here use "deep mountain bases"  for those people hydroponics are the BEST OPTION

Other people play in inhospitable, but livable maps.  Jun-Jul growing season boreal forests and the like.  For those people, it makes sense to wall in a 9x10 area, plant a map in it with some heaters, and grow crops there.  For those maps, that is the BEST OPTION.  They're also required for ice sheets to get started, since Ice sheets have NO roaming animals other than event manhunters.

Both methods DEFINITELY have a use.  Eliminating a method eliminates or needlessly complicates a playstyle.  Meshing them together removes the cost to benefit ratio. 

The only change i think is needed is the removal of the resting period...sun lamps are already a heavy power investment.  I don't see faster food becoming OP (you could always make them 95% light level or something to compensate...something to make them grow at 80-90% growth rate or something)

[Thane]

I've actually been forced into a lot of hydroponics in my most recent game. A desert with only a 4 month growing season, very limited soil that I can actually defend and -30-40C winters. I currently have 81 basins growing rice and I still can't feed my colony. Granted my colony has gotten insanely huge (30 Colonists Same of animals and 10 prisoners.....)

In fact it's about to starve. If a bulk goods trader doesn't show up I will have to have all my pets eaten. Probably starting with the 'food sink' chickens.

[toric]

you say that hydroponics have very little use outside of deep mountains.

Semi-true (very inhospitable climates also use hydroponics).  Consider though, that a LOT of people here use "deep mountain bases"  for those people hydroponics are the BEST OPTION

Other people play in inhospitable, but livable maps.  Jun-Jul growing season boreal forests and the like.  For those people, it makes sense to wall in a 9x10 area, plant a map in it with some heaters, and grow crops there.  For those maps, that is the BEST OPTION.  They're also required for ice sheets to get started, since Ice sheets have NO roaming animals other than event manhunters.

Both methods DEFINITELY have a use.  Eliminating a method eliminates or needlessly complicates a playstyle.  Meshing them together removes the cost to benefit ratio. 

The only change i think is needed is the removal of the resting period...sun lamps are already a heavy power investment.  I don't see faster food becoming OP (you could always make them 95% light level or something to compensate...something to make them grow at 80-90% growth rate or something)

in deep mountain bases, i usually have a small double walled area outside to utilize the soil. better area utilization, less power use, and in the summer i can open up the roof.

[b0rsuk]

a solution to both of these problems would be to remove the sun lamp, the plant resting period, and making hydroponics make their own light for the plants. (maybe a purplish glow, as that is the frequency used by IRL indoor farms.) of course, this could come with an increase in hydroponics power consumption. this means that, while you could grow plants with soil at night, you would have to use normal lamps, and accept the lower growth rate. if you really want to grow plants indoors, you must use hydroponics, as that is what they are meant for. any thoughts on this idea?

I like it. It's more intuitive. It would further distinguish outdoors planting, indoor soil and hydroponics. They would even have different shapes! Indoor soil would be circular, hugging around lamps. Hydroponics would be pretty much freestyle, keeping in mind it's 4x1. Outdoors would be limited by soil and security concerns only.

ill admit, i has never played ice sheets before, but aren't they supposed to be really hard? can you not get by with hunting until you rush hydroponics? (as in before geothermal power?)

What, the occasional hare ? In my experience the only way to survive is to rush Nutrient Paste Dispenser and Hydroponics. I make my colonists sleep in a research room and keep it warm with wood. Then you try to get some wind turbines and normal power. Wind is especially nice on ice sheet because there's almost no growth.

Ice sheet makes you really appreciate supply drops.