So when is Tynan returning?

Started by RoboticManiac, December 21, 2015, 10:53:39 PM

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TLHeart

So what Skissor is saying is that Tynan marketed rimworld on kickstarter, which are goals the game needs to meet... then Tynan changed his mind, but did not inform the public as to what those goals are... Deception, outright lie, lie by omission, take your pick.

Then Tynan stated that in his MIND all goals from the kickstarter are met, and that the game is finished, done in his mind...

It is NOT about what he thinks he has done, it is about what he marketed, what he promoted. That he has not met.

Marketing is a serious business, and comes with many pitfalls, and legal consequences.

JonoRig

He never marketed them as definitive goals, only potential suggestions to get people's ideas, I quote:

"RimWorld's development is arranged into "modules". The plan is to work until one module is finished, release it, and then choose the next based on what people want. This way, the game will grow organically according to the feedback of the community, while remaining playable at all times.

As a Kickstarter backer, you'll be one of the voices with the most influence over which direction we take the game. Perhaps you'll like some of the modules I'm interested in below. And if you've got an idea for another, please let us know.

Note that this list of modules isn't a roadmap or a plan. These may not all ever be finished. They're options I'm offering to the community. Which way should we take the game after the Kickstarter?

Proposed Modules"

palandus

#62
Okay fair enough. It does say that some May Not ever get finished.

The only concern I have is that he is saying that the game is as big as he wanted it to be. But that is a vague statement. Nowhere has he posted a progress meter of "I want to achieve X number of modules for the game to be completed" or a "this is a % progress to the final release" or "these are the essential modules that I feel are needed in the game to make it complete"... like most developers do. Instead, one day out of the blue he says that its basically finished. Yes there are some modules that weren't originally suggested, but at the same time, I recall people complaining vigourously over a year ago that the starship module was bare bones and yet he never changed or added to that module.

So my beef is, how much does he actually change his development based on our feedback? If the whole kickstarter was about making the game the community wanted, how many of the new modules were actually suggested by the community OR how many of those modules listed on the kickstarter were discussed in length by the community that AREN'T in the game that convinced Tynan that they were unwanted and thus weren't essential to making it into the game?

I keep seeing that this is Tynan's baby, which is true. But, that means it isn't the community's baby and thus he doesn't HAVE to listen to us nor implement the things we want while implementing only the things he wants and thus calling it finished because its his baby, even though the community isn't ready to call it finished. How much "power" do backers really have in shaping the game's development? Thoughts?

I can understand his desire to get away to avoid burnout. As I recently ran into a bout of near burnout I can understand why he would like to get away before burning out. If he had burnt out, his "break" away from the game would be much longer. Take Josh Parnell's Limit Theory, another Kickstarter Backed project. Josh was providing daily updates and major monthly video updates for every month in 2014. However, in 2015, Feb I think, he burnt himself out. For three months he posted nothing on the forums and everyone thought he was either dead or ran away with the money. After those 3 months, he came back briefly to post what happened. However, since then, he has come back from time to time with posts, but NO UPDATEs. Its been over 10 months since he started his recovery from burnout and he hasn't posted a major monthly update or even gone back to daily updates. So... the point I'm making is that 6 months isn't such a long time to wait for an update.

The only thing is that he chose to do it when "he felt" that the game was finished, but the community feels like there are still things that need doing and thus we feel that he is abandoning the game during development which isn't a good sign.

falcongrey

It never ceases to surprise me how you always have this two or three individuals who can't seem to accept or understand certain words or statements. They seem to gloss over them to read and hear only what they want to see and instantly focus on the 'worst possible situation' that usually is never the case. They then begin to make comparisons that are totally not comparable and often outrageous then can't seem to understand when people object and defend what they are attacking and call those people defending it various names in the end. Granted you do get a few 'attackers' who don't get to the name calling part however no matter how much proof the defenders throw into the argument something new is then found to attack or the proof is ignored.

Take the word 'Proposed' for example. It is a verb that means "put forward (an idea or plan) for consideration or discussion by others." By definition it is something intended to be used as a consideration or a discussion point. How often I see when someone is 'proposing' an idea it is then held to them in recent times as 'they promised this'. I then start hearing "How dare they promise this and not deliver!"  kind of statements and the persons pointing back to the initial description showing the promises and what was 'proposed' and even STATED 'may not be included' statements. Often those throwing the fits will claim those lines were recently added and still go on about 'proposed' ideas or other areas of attack. A good example of 'other areas' is attacking when a person changes the shift of the development to a new area and declares the area he or she is working as 'finished' by meeting the promised requirements. While often 'promised requirements' is a broad area, there are always those individuals who will attack the 'finished' statement as 'this is far from finished'. At what point does a project get finished? Is it up to the individuals making suggestions and what not into the project or the project manager who at some point has to say 'ok, enough suggestions now. We have met the criteria goals and are done.' While there may still be other areas that need work, the person never said they were done working on the overall project. They were simply stating that one area is 'finished' as they then take a break usually, to refocus their creative energies and resources, and then come back to begin the work on the new area. Kind of like building a house. The frame work is in place, the outer walls of the house are up, the wires are in the house and lights are on, the pluming is working... is the house finished? Not by a long shot but the builder often says 'the house is built' at this point and then begins to change focus on painting the place then putting in the floor, the kitchen counters, the sinks, the toilet and shower. While you often don't see a person building a house walking away for a few months, it sometimes will happen. A good example is winter has sat in. Now the good builder takes time off until the snow is done and the weather has returned to warmer, dryer conditions to resume building. A bad builder will track in the snow and moisture and what not which in years down the road causes problems for the house that was just built. It may not seem like much at the time it was done but it's kind of like a surgeon in an operating room not washing his hands before putting them inside someone. Yes, there is the possibility that nothing bad will come from it. However an infection will likely fester and develop. Same with that house, moisture gets trapped under a wood floor or behind the pain put on a wall. Perfect for mold to begin to slowly grow in a nice hidden area and not show up for a few years down the road.

While this 'small rant' if you want to call this has no one particular person in mind, I'm sure I'm going to get flamed by someone and accused of singling them out because they will take it personally even though I'm simply listing off the usual 'attacks' that happen in general of all the projects, be it computer games, houses built, or what not, that I've watched attacked by people. Often they (the project manager) have to at some point declare 'the promises are finished', but the over all project is not done. Often the project manager will say 'time for some rest so we can come back when the weather clears and our focus is strong' even if everyone is still capable of continuing the work. Often those few individuals come crawling out from somewhere to make outrageous comparisons with other unrelated projects that in their mind are perfect examples without actually digging into what they are comparing against which often is a very poor example of comparisons. While they often look similar on the outside, usually what went on and goes on unseen is very very different.

While it would be nice if all things under development can add more and more and more to them,  at some point someone in charge has to say 'enough suggestions on this because we are finished'. In the specifics of Rimworld, I am glad Tynan was very clear that development was not over on his game. In the way of program development from my past experience, I have only taken this as 'we have reached the end of Alpha development'. For those lacking experience in this, once Alpha development is done it then goes on to Beta development where the skeleton of a program is now fleshed out and features which are very basic often are focused on until they reach a solid and whole feeling. Minor bugs and annoyances are focused on and corrected. Beta stages, just like Alpha stages, very in length. Often they are shorter than an Alpha stage because all the hard work has already been done. The best programs and games often take several months off between Alpha and Beta if they can afford it AND are not under the pressure of a deadline. Usually, in the case of a game developer, they have often made some sort of deadline for themselves which often turn into a hangman's noose because when they reach the deadline they find they have only made it a fraction into the beta stage because of many unforeseen problems with newly added features.

When Tynan returns in a couple months, I'm really looking forward to seeing the new update he has been working on while 'on vacation'. I'm also looking forward to the direction development of Rimworld is about to take.

Grey
p.s. Sorry for the LONG winded rant. We all need to get them out sometimes so long as they remain non-derogatory, fairly focused, on topic, and not disruptive. 
It matters not if we win or fail. It's that we stood and faced it.

palandus

Very good points.

The only gripe is that in all other cases of project development, there is a plan, or in the very least a progress "meter" of how much is left for a complete product. Tynan has never shared his "personal" plan for the game, nor has he stated how much the game has progressed to a finished state and how he defines a finished state. Most other projects have specific metrics for explaining how they define it as a finished state. Tynan hasn't explained how he defines the game as finished, just that he has stated it is finished. In the case of a house builder, they feel the house is finished when according to their plan that the plan says it is finished if it has X, Y, and Z, completed and until those are completed the house isn't finished.

I'd just like to understand from Tynan's perspective why he feels the game is finished, and if he feels it is finished why continue development at all? Unless he is continuing development for an expansion, it doesn't make logical sense to call the game finished. Continued development implies that it isn't actually finished. Its like a house builder building a house, and then saying it is finished... and then later deciding to rip out the roof and add another floor to it.

I'm not trying to be inciteful... I just want to understand his reasoning. His style of development is different than other development performed by video games and has stated before that he doesn't have a specific plan and prefers organic development. The issue is that with organic development there is NEVER a finished state; it is in perpetual development forever. That is why you need a plan; you need a clear end goal. I'm just curious what Tynan's End Goal was for a game that technically has no End Goal, and what caused him to reach this End Goal.

falcongrey

Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
Very good points.

Thank you.  And sorry in advance, this reply is going to get REALLY wordy.

Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
The only gripe is that in all other cases of project development, there is a plan, or in the very least a progress "meter" of how much is left for a complete product. Tynan has never shared his "personal" plan for the game, nor has he stated how much the game has progressed to a finished state and how he defines a finished state. Most other projects have specific metrics for explaining how they define it as a finished state. Tynan hasn't explained how he defines the game as finished, just that he has stated it is finished. In the case of a house builder, they feel the house is finished when according to their plan that the plan says it is finished if it has X, Y, and Z, completed and until those are completed the house isn't finished.

To be honest, Tynan doesn't have to share anything beyond what was given in the update blog in the way of where the game is currently at and so on. He has done a very very good job of this and keeping active with what he is doing and working on between this blog and interactions within the forums with his customers. As for 'all other cases of project development'... Gonna stop you right there. Yes, all GOOD project developments have a sort of 'blue print' of where, what, when, and how to some degree. Is it something public? Unless this is a government funded public project or something done by a charity the answer to that is no it is not public UNLESS the project manager wishes to make it public. Now, does Tynan have some sort of plan that he is following? I think I can safely answer yes to this one. So why hasn't he shared this? Well, to be honest, for one I have never asked him to share it and I don't recall ANYONE asking to publicly share it or to give at the LEAST some sort of 'road map' to the plan he is following. I typically never see any sort of 'meters' on computer program development projects, and frankly I've beta tested quite a few over the years. I often see meters only in the case of fund raising projects and charity event type stuff where they are trying to reach a specific goal for a specific reason so I can understand where the idea of 'meters' come in to thought.

Perhaps, if someone were to politely ask Tynan if he could share some sort of general road map, as I am certain he won't be specific for good reasons, he would likely post a general road map. We do have that sort of thing if we want to dig through all the various past posts he has been actively involved within. And the reason why I am certain he won't be specific is for a very good reason which I will explain. You have a basic idea in mind for a game, you write out a road map for yourself and are quite detailed. Going along the road map you start hitting bumps, twists, and turns on the road that were never expected or foreseen. You then alter the road map to accommodate the bumps, twists, and turns. This changes the original road map but the desired destination is still there. In the way of 'bumps, twists, and turns' that Rimworld can run into is quite obvious. He is making the game in sections or as he called them 'modules'. This is VERY smart in the way of a plan or road map because if one of these modules proves to be very challenging, the game still is playable as he sits this 'module' off to the side for later development while he still works on the core modules. You probably can tell I'm use to making 'road maps' for projects. In the past I use to be a very active programmer. Was offered jobs coming out of high school, one as much as $75k (this was in 1990 so now you know my age). I use to own my own computer company that specialized in network security and P.O.S. development / implementation. Why am I telling all of this and what is my point?  The point is this; even when I use to set up store point of sales systems or computer network security, I didn't show the details of my plan to my clients. I showed them a generalized plan of what I saw would cover their needs. Why didn't I go into details? Simple, when in the process of deployment (or development) situations change. Sometimes VERY drastically where a good part of the original map ends up being scrapped for a new, revised one that still reaches the SAME destination and goals but from a different direction.  If I had shared all the details with my clients, they would become confused or even frustrated to the point of scrapping the whole idea or worse getting someone else to do the same thing I was doing setting the client back in time, money, and shattered nerves.  With programming there are so many possible 'could go wrong' situations, there is not sat in stone map that Tynan can share. No one has ever asked from, from my memory, for any generalized map beyond what he has already provided through the kick starter plan or through his development blog or through the forums. These road maps,  from experience,  only lead to confusion and frustrations worse than we have right now while he is off resting and programming at a snail pace. I'm actually sure if we all wanted to parse through the forums we could create a form of general map to what Tynan has planned and then fully understand why he says 'finished' in a general word. Remember, he didn't say the game was finished. Tynan has never said that and even emphasized that the game was far from done. In his mind this part of HIS map is finished. He has completed all the 'promised' parts of the Kickstarter program and can now focus on the details and harder 'modules' that he wants to place into the game as well as parts we the 'clients' and Rimworld Family want to see in the game. It has only been after he called 'finished' that a few people suddenly screamed WAIT! I personally think he chose a VERY poor word for what he means. I think he should have stated "This part of the game development is now done and I'm going to take a 6 month break before I start on the next set of goals and construction." In basic, he should have said something like "Alpha Development is done. When I get back from 6 months off and taking care of personal things I will begin with Beta Development. In the mean time, I will from time to time poke my head into the forums. I have hired on a second programmer to begin working on the game under my direction while I'm on break." Which is basically what has happened. If he feels it is out of Alpha I will note I am not sure. It is simply, this PART of the game development is done. We have a walking skeleton that is poking us in the butt with a sword. Now he has to put meat on the skeleton. :P

I hope this helped shine a little light on why there isn't some 'posted road map' to the game development currently. I'm sure if someone asked nicely, when he pokes his head back into the forums again he may actually reply with a generalized one or about getting something for us to glance at and have an idea what more Tynan's planning to do with the development of the game. I'm also sure he plans on adding to the game once it goes to full release and 'done' stage.

Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
I'd just like to understand from Tynan's perspective why he feels the game is finished, and if he feels it is finished why continue development at all? Unless he is continuing development for an expansion, it doesn't make logical sense to call the game finished. Continued development implies that it isn't actually finished. Its like a house builder building a house, and then saying it is finished... and then later deciding to rip out the roof and add another floor to it.

I think I covered this well in the above book, but I'll answer it again. Tynan never said the game itself was 'finished'. It was simply this phase of the game development he felt was done and he could take a break before going on to the next phase of development. Remember, over 2 years of the game development was all by himself. Yes, now he has others helping which is why he decided that it was the perfect time to take a break while they work behind the scenes. I'm also sure while this is going on, there are a few core testers working with them but can't say anything because of legal agreements.

Quote from: palandus on January 09, 2016, 07:25:01 PM
I'm not trying to be inciteful... I just want to understand his reasoning. His style of development is different than other development performed by video games and has stated before that he doesn't have a specific plan and prefers organic development. The issue is that with organic development there is NEVER a finished state; it is in perpetual development forever. That is why you need a plan; you need a clear end goal. I'm just curious what Tynan's End Goal was for a game that technically has no End Goal, and what caused him to reach this End Goal.

Well, the fact that you are not trying to be inciteful is obvious. It's why I'm taking all this time and trying to think of how to explain things from what it appears to be Tynan's point of view. Granted, it's mostly MY point of view but I think I'm understanding Tynan's to a large degree on this topic.

Tynan's style of development from what I have seen is a very dedicated and correct style for HIM in my opinion. He isn't posting 'we have this and this coming on this date' for good reason. Look through the past 'video game developers' and see how many actually came through with a solid date or 'plan' without the game being very constrained, or partially done, or other serious game breaking flaws. My favorite example of this was the game Stranghold 3.. Was so hyped up and when it came to release date, they were WAY behind because of good reasons however their project management company that contracted them said 'RELEASE' and so they reluctantly released a game that was still in 'alpha' development. It was a disaster. Sword of the Stars 2 did the same mistake. Granted they tried to say it was due to the head developer accidentally sending an old alpha  that over wrote the final beta, but come on... you can't delete ALL the code and backups on accident manually when trying to upload the finished game as he tried to say he did. Tynan also isn't advertising road maps or 'fixed development' promises and uses an 'organic' form of development as you call it because it is the one that ends up making the best games for some developers. If you build a house that is ridged without room to flex organically in an environment that changes over the seasons, the changes in the environment you are going to have are going to cause some very serious problems come up during the building (development) of it in that pieces won't fit together quite right and the people viewing the end product will see where these meshed locations come up. Perhaps in one game it is a story line that doesn't quite fit together between characters or scenes. Conflicts in story line with battles. Perhaps some device or thing that has to be done doesn't quite fit in to the atmosphere. Perhaps it is a problem that isn't scene from the outside of the game except with lost or corrupted save files due to a new thing that was added to fit the ridged constraints that didn't allow for the development to alter and grow around this change.  There are all sorts of arguments FOR and AGAINST the way Tynan is developing this game. Quite frankly, for some this style is the worst thing they could POSSIBLE attempt to do. For Tynan, this form of development is amazing. If it was ridged, OUR input in the game development with suggestions and such would be extremely limited. With this flexible, organic, style he has chosen he is able to listen to our suggestions. Observe and try out some of the mods for the game. Even add them INTO the game. If it wasn't flexible and organic, this would not be possible without problems. It needs to be able to organically flow and change and incorporate our input smoothly and effortlessly without causing conflicts or breaks in the coding. Can developing like this go on forever? Yes, if you don't have a generalized map of the end destination like Tynan has actually stated has come into view for him. Are we there yet? No, it's in view means we have come around the first turn and we see the lights of the small town on the horizon! (We are getting there in otherwords.)

And it is a good question. What IS the end goal that Tynan sees. Where is he taking us with this grand adventure across the galactic arm. I personally am enjoying the ride and looking out at the slowly passed star systems whenever I wake up from cryo sleep and the slime is washed off me.

Why don't we leave this thread with a polite question to Tynan and perhaps it will be stickied until he sees it and reads the question. 

Tynan, could you please give us a basic road map of for development of Rimworld with your desired goals you have in mind before you call each part of the development 'complete' this way for those who are confused by the flowing style of development chosen can see there actually is structure in how you have planned this out?  It probably would ease some of their fears and frustrations caused by past bad experiences.

Grey

P.S. I apologize if I may have worded something in my post poorly or used incorrect words. I have Fibromyalgia and often will get words confused that mean different things or simply think I posted one thing and typed out something entirely not what I intended or not typing entire sentences (or more) thinking I did. I DO try to re-read my posts before I hit post to correct this but can miss things if my mind doesn't register the missing parts or wrong words. I'm also very fine with people pointing these mistakes out so I can try to correct them. :)
It matters not if we win or fail. It's that we stood and faced it.

Sergeant Cynical

That block of text was even scarier than the last one :o

palandus

Actually he DID say it is done; in his July 1st, 2015 blog. Check the Blog; here is a link:

https://ludeon.com/blog/page/2/

Here is the quote, "In the end, I think that a game is done when promises have been fulfilled, and there aren't holes in the design. And we're reached that point, so RimWorld is done."

Sounds like he said that Rimworld is done / finished.

He states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.

falcongrey

Quote from: Sergeant Cynical on January 10, 2016, 01:09:48 AM
That block of text was even scarier than the last one :o

LOL! I agree!  ;D

Quote from: palandus on January 10, 2016, 01:31:49 AM
Actually he DID say it is done; in his July 1st, 2015 blog. Check the Blog; here is a link:

https://ludeon.com/blog/page/2/

Here is the quote, "In the end, I think that a game is done when promises have been fulfilled, and there aren't holes in the design. And we're reached that point, so RimWorld is done."

Sounds like he said that Rimworld is done / finished.

He states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.

Yes. this is true. However read above that:

QuoteHaving considered the feedback so far, there's a good chance I may release the game on Steam as a non-Early Access finished game. Read below for why. Nothing of substance would be different from how it's described here – it's just a labeling/PR issue.

Additionally look below that:

QuoteThat said, just because RimWorld is done doesn't necessarily mean I'm done with it.

I like working on the game, you all like playing it, and it's profitable. So I probably will add more content to the game. In the meantime, though, I think it's time for a bit of a break. I've been working on RimWorld and its prototypes for going on three years straight now, and my hours are usually pretty long. I'm starting to feel a bit of burnout. I often seem to develop this dull ache behind the eyes after a couple hours of work. I have trouble concentrating for the lengths of time that used to be normal for me. For that reason – and just because I believe in having a life that isn't all work – I'm taking some time off from full-time RimWorld development starting in September. Currently it's looking like it'll be about six months. I'll still be around to interact, but I won't be developing constantly like I have been.

And specifically a little further into reading Tynan's book :P :
QuoteAs I said, I like working on RimWorld, but I've also learned that the future is very uncertain and it's a bad idea to make promises you're not sure you can keep.

He has also stated in the most RECENT blog Post, November 12th, that work is ONGOING.

QuoteWith the magic of laptops and Internet, and excellent work from coding prodigy Piotr 'ison' Walczak, progress on the game itself is continuing at full speed even while I'm not at home.

He also explained in that blog post WHY he won't go into details about what is coming beyond the list what what is being worked on currently:
QuoteWe work iteratively, so things change a lot, often in unexpected ways. So I won't go into detail about exactly what's being added. But I can offer some generalities.

So, with the blog post and his interaction in the forums from time to time after that it is very obvious that he is still working on the game. The 'FINISHED' part is more of a PR statement in that all the promises are done, the game is fun in its current state, there are no holes in the coding or massive bugs, and there are still some 'optional' content that he plans to put INTO the game before he will say he is 'done' with the game.

Think of it as you are building a car. You put together the engine on a stand. You get the engine to start and run so it works. You build a body for the car. It sound and solid and can mount/support the engine. You  build the transmission. You put a seat in it you can set on, although just a piece of metal it works. You put the engine into the car. Attach it to the transmission. Attach a drive shaft to the transmission and attach it to wheels. The car now goes forward and back. You attach a steering system to the front wheels. Now you can turn the car. It goes forward and takes you places and also carries stuff for you. Car is finished. So once again, the word 'finished' is saying 'yes the the car is built' but now we can give it the optional paint job, the plush leather seats, a radio, a windscreen, and you get what I am saying. Yes, the game is 'Finished' but it is not done. Tynan says this himself that he plans to keep adding optional content to flesh it out.

Additionally Tynan states this:
QuoteI appreciate all discussion but please don't ask for more details on these! Check the FAQ for more info on why we don't release detailed descriptions of unreleased designs.

In the FAQ he states this:
QuoteI have a question about future developments.

– Ludeon uses an iterative, evidence-based, dynamic development process that changed direction often. This is the best way to create the strongest game design, but it also means we have no way of knowing how the game will develop before it does. So to reduce stress, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when the designs change (as they always do, for good reasons) we won't answer questions about future developments. Because honestly – we just don't know the answer! This leaves us free to iterate and change things as needed without worrying about pissing off players who were expecting a certain feature to work a certain way. It also saves us a lot of time that would otherwise be spent constantly managing and updating community expectations, which means that we can get the actual game to you faster and better.

This is why I said, ask him. He MAY give you a generalized plan of what he is still planning with Rimworld development. As for right now, he gave us what he is CURRENTLY working on in November 12th's blog post. For me, that is good enough. I don't mind the delay before release of it. He says he is going to release it on his return and that is good enough for me. Tynan has always done exactly what he has said he will do in the past. I don't see that changing over the next couple months before he returns.

Grey
It matters not if we win or fail. It's that we stood and faced it.

Justin C

Quote from: palandus on January 10, 2016, 01:31:49 AMHe states earlier in that same blog how he looks at the game and all the major stuff are filled, and the rest of stuff are optional. However, he never has clarified what are the critical stuff and what are the optional stuff. What recent modules did he feel were critical, and why does he feel the other modules are only optional.
The obvious answer is that it's entirely subjective, based on his own idea of what the finished product should look like. And that's fine, because he's the developer.

falcongrey

Quote from: Justin C on January 10, 2016, 02:22:46 AMsubjective

Thank you SO much! I was trying to figure out that word from the description of the word in my mind... -.- For those familiar with Fibromyalgia and it fogging up the mind, you understand what I am saying about knowing definitions and can't remember the word!

Grey
It matters not if we win or fail. It's that we stood and faced it.

Austupaio

Quote from: Ramsis on January 04, 2016, 08:14:19 PM
I'm not going to ban you despite wanting to, mostly because you're an idiot and just assume the worst to such an umpf degree that you make yourself look foolish. The game is healthy, the development team is great, the game will be finished and you'll have egg on your face :)
Threatening to ban someone and calling them an idiot for expressing worries about a game they are supporting? Is this the kind of customer service we should expect once the game is released?

The exact case he mentioned HAS happened with Early Access games, so many times, it is a very valid concern and as so many have commented, a six month vacation is insane.

I can't even believe a representative of the game would leave a comment like this, it is so amazingly unprofessional.

P.S. Haven't been on the forum in a while and I have not read this thread all the way through, but I was checking because I do worry about the future of the game and seeing moderators threatening bans for expressing such worries doesn't exactly allay them.

RemingtonRyder

If you check the post that Ramsis is replying to (on page 2) you will note that the poster is quite petulant.

Frankly, if someone does post inflammatory remarks then a temp ban is an option open to a moderator, provided that they explain why the ban is being given. Threatening a ban if a poster doesn't alter their behaviour is a reminder that this forum has rules and that the moderator will enforce them.

Having concerns is one thing. Spouting off some hysterical hyperbole is another. Starvation is not something to wish on someone, least of all for the perceived "abandonment" of an indie game. That is idiotic ranting.

I'm all for presenting a friendly face to customers, as long as they in turn respect the forum rules and don't jump on some bandwagon claiming that the end is nigh or other such doomsaying. ;)

It can be said that a game is as strong as the community which supports it. I don't know if you guys realise this, but I was part of the community effort to update Galactic Civilisations II, a game which had all sorts of problems after the second expansion Twilight of the Arnor. But quite recently the community update for the game was pushed out as an update on Steam.

Now, that's not what usually happens. Quite often when a developer is done with a game, they've moved on to something new and there's not a lot of incentive for them to revisit an old title. Indeed, there was a period where it seemed like Stardock had forgotten about our little project, and then they went forward with an update (not just on Steam, mind, but a DRM-free release on GOG too) and suddenly it was back on.

My impression is that RimWorld's community, taken as a whole, makes it a bit more worthwhile to work on RimWorld. If Tynan were just interested in £££ then he would have calculated a particular cut-off point and called it done.

There are good and not completely selfless reasons to have a community stick around. When you start developing a new game then you have an audience to try ideas on. When you screw something up they will tell you about it. When they enjoy the game for reasons you couldn't have anticipated, you learn more about your target demographic. ;)

Games with a disunited community are probably less fun to work on. For example, all the relevant and helpful discussion about The Sims is on modder boards. I probably don't need to tell you why modders don't hang out much on the official The Sims forums. :/


wbonxx

I have the impression that is reasonable for people to get stressed when the game doesn't get updated for 6 months.

Even if he is away, it would be reasonable to release the current state of the game with the updates he promised 3 months ago (some of them seems to be important).

Even if things are still buggy, the game is in alpha and users will help to balance.

Do the moderators have the chance to get in touch with the developers and see if we can test a new alpha?

JimmyAgnt007

Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
I have the impression that is reasonable for people to get stressed when the game doesn't get updated for 6 months.

Its not reasonable when the 6 months are made clear in the first place.  If he didnt say anything and went radio silent that would be another story. 

Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Even if he is away, it would be reasonable to release the current state of the game with the updates he promised 3 months ago (some of them seems to be important).

It would not.  Testing and QA takes a lot of effort and time to manage.  So it wouldnt be vacation time for him if he was busy doing that. 

Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Even if things are still buggy, the game is in alpha and users will help to balance.

That would be a chaotic mess.  Tynan doesnt do things that way.  Private testers would be the first in line to test things.  Thats what we do.  Once it gets past us its the public testers and then finally the public.  There will still be bugs to find but that whole process would be horribly slowed down if he wanted to stay on vacation so its just not worth it.

Quote from: wbonxx on January 11, 2016, 12:32:52 PM
Do the moderators have the chance to get in touch with the developers and see if we can test a new alpha?

Why do you need a mod?  Tynan has already told us when thats going to happen.  Sometime March(ish) being 6 months after he said he was taking a break.  Thats when the testing will most likely start.  Being a big update it might take longer than normal so Expect April and be pleasantly surprised if its earlier than that.