Prevent global debuff for organ harvest?

Started by Shabazza, January 06, 2016, 11:09:37 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Shabazza

Is it possible to prevent taht global debuff after a doctor took some organs from a prisoner for example?
It's a pretty heavy debuff.
So it would be cool if it could be limited to the doctor maybe or somehow softened.

JimmyAgnt007

It does seem harsh but its a harsh thing to do to the prisoner.  Unless all your people are psychopaths then they should have a big problem with it.

Shabazza

Hm. OK.
I guess it doesn't help that it's for the "greater good", ha? XD
I'd like to have a positive buff after implanting a limb or organ successfully...

So in this case I'll have to feed my "donators" a bit longer to not annoy my colonists too much at a time.

REMworlder

It is kind of weird that colonists with diverse backgrounds from not only different cultures, but different planets, feel so uniformly the same about organ harvesting. Especially, say, if a colonist has his liver shot out by the same prisoner whose liver's harvested. Increasing the debuff and limiting it to the doctor, or maybe only colonists with a certain level of medical knowledge, makes a lot of sense.

I think the debuff is almost 100% in response to the profitability of organ harvesting more than anything. I'm not sure if I disagree with that, but it's not a great solution.

That all said, the organ system itself is kind of weird and largely useless. Following the organ debuff changes, almost 70% of users never or rarely transport organs. Specific organ damage is rare to begin with, especially things like hearts, so the only purpose for organs is to harvest and sell. Which ironically strongly discouraged by the hard debuffs. It's weird that the mechanic is so cool, but players are discouraged from using it.

Coenmcj

You can change these if you feel they're too Overpowered/underpowered
Inside your gamedata directory, go to mods, core, thoughtdefs then open up Thought_Memories (With text editor of choice, something like Notepad++ )
Line 435-439 is Prisoner/guest harvested and died
Line 461-465 is colonist harvested and died
Line 469-484 is Prisoner/guest harvested
Line 486-501 is Colonist harvested
Line 503-514 is "my organs were harvested"

Moderator on discord.gg/rimworld come join us! We don't bite

Shabazza

Oh, I actually use a mod that extends this somewhat basic vanilla organ/prosthetic system, because I want to be able to fix my colonists.
If someone has a missing foot or hand or eye, I like to implant him some crappy self made protheses
or give him a "donated" organ to be in top form when needed.
But this debuff is so heavy, that I have to rest for a week for further surgeries after I removed about 2 or 3 organs/limbs,
or my people will go mad.

In my eyes, organs would not need to be so valuable in the game.
I don't need to make money with it. But I like the ability to keep my people fit.
Even a crappy wooden leg or steel arm makes a huge difference against "no leg". So yeah.  ::)

Thanks for the tip with the game files.
Will see if I change this. Although I hoped for a less cheaty way.

Lys

Personally I think that there should be some kind of mood loss like there currently is, but with the way it currently stacks it just gets too hard to deal with prisoners. Same with selling them to pirates.
There should be some kind of cap to the debuff, I mean, it's obvious that (normal) people are not happy with organs being harvested or people being sold into slavery, but at a certain point they should have gotten "used to it", as in "thats the way we gotta deal with them if we want to survive". Its strange that the colonists have THAT much empathy towards pirates who wanted to kill them just yesterday. The most ethical way from the way it currently stands is that incapacitated pirates should be left to bleed out and then... left to rot or chopped up. Seriously why should I create a graveyard for all those hundreds of assholes that tried to kill me already...

tl;dr, colonists should get used to the way the enemies are being treated, caps for the debuffs are necessary imo.

Coenmcj

There is a cap to the mood debuff. Each debuff stacks up to 5 times (with a few exceptions), with the debuff for killing and harvesting a prisoner is about -6 and a modifier of 0.75, (excuse my early morning math) which is about -40 All up.

And the effect of just harvesting 5 parts from prisoners (Not resulting in death) is -5, modifier of 0.75 so about -33
The effect of harvesting on the prisoner themselves is -30 per part, stacking to 5.

Strangely enough however, the guest/prisoner and colonist versions of the harvesting/executing debuffs are exactly the same for either side.
Moderator on discord.gg/rimworld come join us! We don't bite

Lys

#8
Ok fair enough, didn't know about those caps but I don't really feel like there are effective ways to counter these mood debuffs currently, with the exception of getting your people blackout drunk all the time?
(-33 for 2 weeks or whatever it is, is still pretty massive imo)

Shabazza

#9
Well, as long as you don't want to trade with organs, you don't need to harvest every raider that gets inprisoned.
A complete set or two in stock with parts would be ok.
But still, when you are actually taking those parts, you can't really do it in one sweep. You have to span it over weeks
to go easy on your people - which is bad if you are as impatient as I am. XD.

Yesterday one of my guys fought a fire at one of my remote geothermals during a (dry) thunderstorm.
He was the first to arrive because he was around at that time.
At first I forgot to remove the roof, so he got a heatstroke when trying to keep the flames away from my generator.
After he recovered his senses, he tried to put out the spreading fire while his colleagues were on their way to help out.
He eventually catched fire and run around in pain until loosing consciousness. When I finally rescued him, he had burnings at pretty much every body part.
So in such cases you are glad to have a way to get him back on his feet.
And I find the game should allow this without punishing the protagonists (and therefore the player) too hard.

Regret

Seriously? You are all sociopaths.
If I knew my neighbour was in the habit of cutting organs out of our prisoners I would be pretty upset.
Upset enough to actually go berserk.

I can't believe all of you wouldn't mind being part of a community where every prisoner gets kept alive only long enough to harvest their organs.

Please tell me if any of your countries ever declares war on mine in real life, so I can tell my friends to take suicide-pills rather than be captured.

A Friend

"For you, the day Randy graced your colony with a game-ending raid was the most memorable part of your game. But for Cassandra, it was Tuesday"

Squiggly lines you call drawings aka "My Deviantart page"

Coenmcj

Quote from: Regret on January 07, 2016, 05:21:35 AM
Seriously? You are all sociopaths.
If I knew my neighbour was in the habit of cutting organs out of our prisoners I would be pretty upset.
Upset enough to actually go berserk.

I can't believe all of you wouldn't mind being part of a community where every prisoner gets kept alive only long enough to harvest their organs.

Please tell me if any of your countries ever declares war on mine in real life, so I can tell my friends to take suicide-pills rather than be captured.

I... Regret to inform you, but I'm not among these people, Currently... Just helping out, Don't usually go the 'Harvest all the prisoners' route unless I need the parts, or drastically need the money, last resort. Unless I'm RPing a darker colony, then no holds barred.

Asides, our actions ingame are hardly reflective of our real selves. Lighten up. :)
Moderator on discord.gg/rimworld come join us! We don't bite

Shabazza

It's a game. A single player game.
There are certain things I highly dislike even in a game. Like canibalism.
But I don't set real-world morale over fun in a sanboxy computer game. And I don't like beeing patronized by game developers.
If Tynan doesn't want us to take organs of prisoners or colonists, he could have left this feature out of the game entirely.
He did not, but applied a debuff to show the player that he (yes: he) disregards this action because it's immoral by real world standards.
Heck, I would be fine if a colonist (or raider) could free-willingly donate his organs upon death, based on a trait or something.
But currently you have no other chance than to take those organs by force while those guys are still alive and not willingly donating their left lung.
THATs the real issue here, because that's really sick.
So this game mechanic is flawed and to make things worse, we get punished hard for using this flawed game mechanic.
That's why I searched for a way to soften this punishment. Because I don't feel guilty here.

Lys

Well I would do something "more ethical" with my prisoners than cutting them open or selling them into slavery, I just don't know what really.
I always try to recruit them when the difficulty is 97 or below, else it just takes far too long and my prisons would get stuck. Also more often than not they are too picky about the work they can do (only available for fighting and research? That guy is pretty much useless to me...) or have really undesirable perks (I don't need 5 jealous guys or a bunch of people that get a mental break down at the slightest discomfort), or they already have some major organ (probably brain) damage, and I'm not really keen on starting a mental asylum in my colony.
So what else is there left to do if they wouldn't be a productive member of my colony...? Just release them back so they can attack me again (or raise my reputation so that I only get mechs at some point)?... naaah.