Better Sieges.

[erdrik]

... waiting in a mountain until they're asleep...then you can take them out with negligible risk ... .

^

This is another good reason that changing the population size of sieges won't really work.
Melee base night assassination pretty much negates the advantage of superior numbers.

[Pactrick Willis]

... waiting in a mountain until they're asleep...then you can take them out with negligible risk ... .

^

This is another good reason that changing the population size of sieges won't really work.
Melee base night assassination pretty much negates the advantage of superior numbers.

That's another thing, They should wake up when you get too close. You should not be able to melee assassinate them in the night without some form of alarm going off.

[Livingston I Presume]

 The suggestion is neither helpful, nor is it entirely possible, eg " This would require some smarter AI ".  Add small mechanics not rewrite entire events and scripting, go read how the Rimworld AI works first, small improvements are often the most useful and the hardest to make, because they're the hardest to see and identify.  Anyone who has played Rimworld and had a siege knows they're not perfect and need work

[erdrik]

... That's another thing, They should wake up when you get too close. You should not be able to melee assassinate them in the night without some form of alarm going off.

I disagree. The whole point of sneaking in at night with a blade is that you do it quietly to avoid raising alarm.

I agree it needs to be harder to pull off, but just having them wake up if you get too close defeats the purpose. I think they just need to have one or more or the pirates be night owls or have a staggered sleep schedule, and have those night pirates patrol the camp in a way that will sometimes leave an opening. That way the tactic can still be used, but the player is pressured by the requirement of timing and positioning.

[Pactrick Willis]

... That's another thing, They should wake up when you get too close. You should not be able to melee assassinate them in the night without some form of alarm going off.

I disagree. The whole point of sneaking in at night with a blade is that you do it quietly to avoid raising alarm.

I agree it needs to be harder to pull off, but just having them wake up if you get too close defeats the purpose. I think they just need to have one or more or the pirates be night owls or have a staggered sleep schedule, and have those night pirates patrol the camp in a way that will sometimes leave an opening. That way the tactic can still be used, but the player is pressured by the requirement of timing and positioning.

You are right, But unless you can one shot them with a melee weapon (Or bow perhaps?) They should all wake up.

[erdrik]

... You are right, But unless you can one shot them with a melee weapon (Or bow perhaps?) They should all wake up.

I dunno, maybe. That detail falls into either the ever consuming void of 'abstraction' or maintaining combat balance.
The tussle of the assassin and the victim fighting can be abstracted as a muffled grapple on the ground with attacker's hand over victims mouth, since the graphics don't really support actually showing that.

But, one-shoting a sleeping target is a bit overpowered(in the context of maintaining the tactics difficulty), even with the chance of failing and waking the camp. If you can do it reliably, you could swiftly wipe the entire camp with one assassin, which defeats the purpose of the added difficulty.
And if its just a luck thing it makes it too difficult, as you(or at least in my experience) would rarely ever get that one shot.

[Pactrick Willis]

... You are right, But unless you can one shot them with a melee weapon (Or bow perhaps?) They should all wake up.

I dunno, maybe. That detail falls into either the ever consuming void of 'abstraction' or maintaining combat balance.
The tussle of the assassin and the victim fighting can be abstracted as a muffled grapple on the ground with attacker's hand over victims mouth, since the graphics don't really support actually showing that.

But, one-shoting a sleeping target is a bit overpowered(in the context of maintaining the tactics difficulty), even with the chance of failing and waking the camp. If you can do it reliably, you could swiftly wipe the entire camp with one assassin, which defeats the purpose of the added difficulty.
And if its just a luck thing it makes it too difficult, as you(or at least in my experience) would rarely ever get that one shot.

Perhaps a new weapon? Something that specifically targets organs?

[erdrik]

... Perhaps a new weapon? Something that specifically targets organs?

Eh.
Being a new weapon won't change that it would still be overpowered if its one-shoting the pirates.
You'd still be able to sweep the camp with one assassin, and in my experience Ive not had problems getting access to at least 1 of every weapon. Even if it was difficult to obtain Im not fond of binary switches in difficulty like that.

In all honesty, the current abstraction of a "muffled grapple on the ground with attacker's hand over victims mouth" is still the best solution in my book. It may remove the enemy's numbers advantage, but with the previously mentioned night pirate patrols adding timing pressure, and the fact that it ultimately still gives the pirate a chance to attack back... I think night assassinations would be pretty well balanced as is.

[skullywag]

Id deffo be up for some sentries patrolling if the seige group is asleep. Spawn a couple of night owls in there. A gunshot or an attack within a certain number of cells of a sleeping pawn would wake them, take the sentry out at the right point so as to not wake them would be oh so satisfying.

However to fix the issue i would simply adjust the group so only half sleep at night.

[Pactrick Willis]

The suggestion is neither helpful, nor is it entirely possible, eg " This would require some smarter AI ".  Add small mechanics not rewrite entire events and scripting, go read how the Rimworld AI works first, small improvements are often the most useful and the hardest to make, because they're the hardest to see and identify.  Anyone who has played Rimworld and had a siege knows they're not perfect and need work

You are providing nothing to this conversation by saying that. If you have something to contribute, go ahead. If not, Don't rain on our parade.

[erdrik]

... That's another thing, They should wake up when you get too close. You should not be able to melee assassinate them in the night without some form of alarm going off.

I disagree. The whole point of sneaking in at night with a blade is that you do it quietly to avoid raising alarm.

I agree it needs to be harder to pull off, but just having them wake up if you get too close defeats the purpose. ...

Arresting or harming pawns now wakes their nearby allies.

Welp.
Just noticed this after a rude "awakening" during my first siege of A13.
I guess sneaking around at night isn't an option anymore??

I love this game and I love the work the Devs put into it and I will respect their decisions, but that doesn't mean Im not going to put my two cents in again here and express my complete disagreement with this change.

[Boston]

... That's another thing, They should wake up when you get too close. You should not be able to melee assassinate them in the night without some form of alarm going off.

I disagree. The whole point of sneaking in at night with a blade is that you do it quietly to avoid raising alarm.

I agree it needs to be harder to pull off, but just having them wake up if you get too close defeats the purpose. ...

Arresting or harming pawns now wakes their nearby allies.

Welp.
Just noticed this after a rude "awakening" during my first siege of A13.
I guess sneaking around at night isn't an option anymore??

I love this game and I love the work the Devs put into it and I will respect their decisions, but that doesn't mean Im not going to put my two cents in again here and express my complete disagreement with this change.

Contrary to popular opinion, people actually have a startlingly-high tendency to scream when hurt. "One hit kills", unless you are very skilled and know exactly where to hit, are rather rare in a real life fight. Even after someone has been mortally wounded, they can still struggle and fight, even talk, until they die. Unless you kill ANDknock someone out/prevent them from speaking at the same time, even someone getting stabbed in the chest/neck has enough time to grunt in pain.

The above is one of the reasons, of many, why the much-loved Soviet "ballistic knife" was in actuality a pretty shit-tastic weapon.

[b0rsuk]

Rename "Siege" to "Bombardment". Problem solved.

As for making sieges more challenging, make sieges come with 2-3 guard dogs. Fast dogs that go after your sniper once siegers are under fire. Patrolling guard dogs would also be a natural way of making nightly assassination harder.

Classic sieges, where attackers stay outside the shooting range is something that fits more to tribals, or at least outlander towns.

[erdrik]

Contrary to popular opinion, people actually have a startlingly-high tendency to scream when hurt. ...

I am aware of this, and have already discussed the concept in this thread.

I wouldn't have a problem if the change was:

Arresting or harming pawns with loud weapons now wakes their nearby allies.

and/ or:

Arresting or harming pawns with low melee skill now wakes their nearby allies.

But its just a blind blanket that makes it impossible to do any kind of stealthy assassination, regardless of skill or weapon.

...Unless you kill AND knock someone out/prevent them from speaking at the same time ...

The point is thats not possible in the game. The change log just states harm will wake up the allies.
There is no indication that one shotting them or knocking them out before they can cry out won't still wake up their allies..

[Mathenaut]

I think a good compromise is just to grant an accuracy/damage bonus against sleeping targets.