Lore

[MarcTheMerc]

Skullywag style.

[Dive]

I think the whole lore would make more sense if the superluminal travel was introduced, just so it would take months to travel, instead of dosens of years. The presence of Rim Worlds would still be explainable, as they can be just worlds without much resourses, located away from everything, so nobody cares about them.  Also, i don't think that with the amount of living space that can be acquired by humans with FTL technology is so immense, that the population density throughout galaxy would still be low by the 5500's and a group of people could be lost really easy. And it would be unlikely for someone to find them, so they'd have enough time to degrade to medieval level or even lower.

Maybe i did not consider something immersion-breaking in this scenario though, idk.

[Tynan]

FTL travel can be very slow, but this doesn't preclude frequent space travel. Spaceships could be traveling between different points on the planet's surface, different space stations/asteroids, different moons of the planet, or other planets in the same star system. All of these are thousands of times closer together than another star.

Too many people think "a spaceship is a spaceship". The reality is that space travel is a bit like ocean travel. You can't cross the Pacific on a dugout canoe - but you can get between nearby islands. That's where the space traders come from. An orbital ship isn't a starship the same way a dugout canoe isn't an ocean liner.

As for the varying development levels of the people you encounter (tribal, medieval, industrial, glitterworld), I find this reasonable because all of these exist on Earth right now. There are places where millions of people still live tribal or near-tribal village lifestyles. Others in mid-low developed countries (India, Africa, etc) make use of a lot of medieval-like technologies like hand-forging of metal and hand-threshing of crops. Then we have variations on the modern world, from the "glitter capitals" of New York or Tokyo to the dirty industrial cities in China.

Now spread these on different planets, isolate them for a while, then pick them up onto refugee ships or science ships or whatever and send them into interstellar space. It's RimWorld.

Of course there are a few stretches in the universe backstory. It's all done in the goal of making an interesting and unique universe to play with. Other things just aren't fully fleshed out in this particular game (e.g. tech tree stuff). In any case, with some imagination suspension of disbelief shouldn't be impossible. At least, that's what I shot for.

[erdrik]

...
Too many people think "a spaceship is a spaceship". The reality is that space travel is a bit like ocean travel. You can't cross the Pacific on a dugout canoe - but you can get between nearby islands. That's where the space traders come from. An orbital ship isn't a starship the same way a dugout canoe isn't an ocean liner.
...

Do you think it would help to re-write the in game descriptions to reference them specifically as "In System" Traders/Ships/Pirates?

[Dive]

Spaceships could be traveling between different points on the planet's surface, different space stations/asteroids, different moons of the planet, or other planets in the same star system.

I see a weak point in this scenario. Let's say that a rimworld is indeed a forgotten place with just a few (thousands) people living on it. What chances are that they are interested in space traveling from one point of the planet to another? I'd say chances are low, as there are much easier ways of moving around, like airplanes (which are also much lower tech than space travel). Also, where would such traders take super-hi-tech stuff from? Are they manufactured in a community of a few thousand people, struggling to survive on a distant planet? Seems unlikely.
Spaceships from different celestial bodies in the star system? Chances are low, or else the whole system is not that uninhabited and forgotten, as i assume it takes a strong high-tech community to do space travel.
Another life-sustaining planet in the star system with a developed civilisation? Seems unlikely. First of all, i'd suppose chance of having two habitable planets in a star system are rather low, unless it's a double planet where both planet are of similar size and properties (located on the same distance from the star, obviously). But then i think that civilisation would show itself much more evidently than just sending trading ships.

I like the RW lore, but the way we have space traders right now just makes the lore self-contradicting. If we take away this part of the equation the lore makes perfect sense. I hope there will be found a replacement for space traders, or the lore will be altered to make them more fitting.

[A Friend]

The next alpha will introduce ground-based caravans.

Muffalopacks heck yea

[JesterHell]

I see a weak point in this scenario. Let's say that a rimworld is indeed a forgotten place with just a few (thousands) people living on it.

What make you think its a "forgotten" place? as I understand it the term "Rimworld" is just meant to mean on the frontier or far from the "core" worlds and more heavily populated space... it's just the space boonies.

What chances are that they are interested in space traveling from one point of the planet to another? I'd say chances are low, as there are much easier ways of moving around, like airplanes (which are also much lower tech than space travel).

True, I can't argue with that.

Also, where would such traders take super-hi-tech stuff from? Are they manufactured in a community of a few thousand people, struggling to survive on a distant planet? Seems unlikely.

By high tech do you mean bionics and glitterworld medicine? Because I don't think that they would be "struggling to survive" if they have a high enough level of technology, I can easily imagine a heavily automated glitterworld colony with little to no manual labor on the part of the colonists.

I can also imagine such products coming from a completely automated facility controlled, run and protected by mechanoids that are still following their original programming to mass produce (insert high tech item here), the machnoid are programed to take raw resource x and turn it into product x and people have learned "if I deliver x units of x resource to the facilities deliver bay the mechanoids will produce x amount of x item and drop it off at the dispatch area for pick-up."

Spaceships from different celestial bodies in the star system? Chances are low, or else the whole system is not that uninhabited and forgotten, as i assume it takes a strong high-tech community to do space travel.

Don't know why you think the system would be uninhabited, if Rimworld just means its in the space boonies then it could have multiple inhabitable worlds.

Another life-sustaining planet in the star system with a developed civilisation? Seems unlikely. First of all, i'd suppose chance of having two habitable planets in a star system are rather low, unless it's a double planet where both planet are of similar size and properties (located on the same distance from the star, obviously). But then i think that civilisation would show itself much more evidently than just sending trading ships.

Please do consider that one of the sources of inspiration of Rimworld is firefly and here is a brief summery of the firefly universe.

http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/The_Verse

"The star system is a star cluster, of the likes of the triple star system Alpha Centauri. It consists of five main sequence stars, around which orbit an assortment of protostars, gas giants, asteroid belts, planets, and their moons.[1] Four of the main sequence stars orbit a central star."

"White Sun - also known as Bai Hu - is the center of the 'Verse by all reckoning. Around it orbit the Central Planets, also known as the White Sun system, and the home of the Alliance."

"Georgia - also known as Huang Long - is the principal star of the Georgia system, the largest system orbiting White Sun (Bai Hu). Here is where the Independent Planets first stood up against the Alliance. The memory of this lies across the surface of Shadow, a planet bombed so hard at the beginning of the Unification War that nothing lives there and never will again."

The player's rimworld could just be a planet like shadow, it was destroyed by a civ with higher tech and just left to rot, really sucks to have crash landed here.

"Red Sun - also known as Zhu Que - is the coldest of all the suns in the 'Verse. It is the principal star of the Red Sun system. It shares an orbit with Huang Long, sitting in its L3 point in orbit around White Sun (Bai Hu)."

"Kalidasa - also known as Xuan Wu - is the start of the Rim Planets. It is the principal star of the Kalidasa system."

This is why I think Rimworld just means it in the space boonies. 

"Blue Sun (not to be confused with the Blue Sun Corporation) - also known as Qing Long - sits out on the edge of the 'Verse. It is the principal star of the Blue Sun system. It was here that the first attacks by Reavers took place."

it should be keep in mind that in firefly each of these systems does have multiple inhabited planets that where terraformed to be inhabitable.

I like the RW lore, but the way we have space traders right now just makes the lore self-contradicting. If we take away this part of the equation the lore makes perfect sense. I hope there will be found a replacement for space traders, or the lore will be altered to make them more fitting.

Its not as contradicting as you'd think, from a certain point of view  , also Tynan said that they are adding ground based caravans, read the dot points in this blog post.

https://ludeon.com/blog/2015/11/ongoing-progress/

[erdrik]

What chances are that they are interested in space traveling from one point of the planet to another? I'd say chances are low, as there are much easier ways of moving around, like airplanes (which are also much lower tech than space travel).

True, I can't argue with that.

I can. Primarily because building an orbit capable ship is apparently well within the reach of any group of shmucks that happens to crash land on a planet and can gather enough materials for it.

If 5-15 player colonists can build a system ship from scratch in a few years or less it kinda set a precedent on the ease by which system ships can be built and used. Combine the apparent abundance of drop pods with orbital ships being able to travel to any geosynchronous position a hell of a lot faster than any atmospheric craft and suddenly space ships seem quite a bit more appealing.

[JesterHell]

I can. Primarily because building an orbit capable ship is apparently well within the reach of any group of shmucks that happens to crash land on a planet and can gather enough materials for it.

If 5-15 player colonists can build a system ship from scratch in a few years or less it kinda set a precedent on the ease by which system ships can be built and used. Combine the apparent abundance of drop pods with orbital ships being able to travel to any geosynchronous position a hell of a lot faster than any atmospheric craft and suddenly space ships seem quite a bit more appealing.

True... but I felt that the easy ship building was a place holder.

[jzero]

You know a thread is good when someones post is a good quarter page long. And no epic roasts either! quite rare!

[Dive]

What make you think its a "forgotten" place? as I understand it the term "Rimworld" is just meant to mean on the frontier or far from the "core" worlds and more heavily populated space... it's just the space boonies.

Thank you for such a big response, even though i'm going to disagree with some of your points, i respect you for making effort to proclaim and prove them
I'm going to use the only sources of officlal lore  we have:
RimWorld Universe Quick Primer
Longsleep Revival Briefing
So, what's a Rimworld? The definition we have is

Rimworlds - Distant and isolated planets lacking in strong central government and low in population density. These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower. Because they're not homogenized by a central government, they tend to see a lot of interaction between people of different technology levels, as travelers crashland or ancient closed valut communities open up.

I'd like to note the word "isolated". Maybe it's not as bad as "forgotten" but still, it's a pretty strong word. Also, it says that "These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology", which reduces the chance of a small high tech society being there. But it's not excluded completely, so maybe it's possible.
Mechanoid facilities is a good theory that would also explain occasional mechanoid raids.

Now to the whole firefly thing. Rimworld may be inspired by the series, but not in such literal way. It might at some point feel like you're on a firefly's "Rim Planet", but it's certainly not the same thing. Let's check the lore:

Humanity is smeared across a region of the galaxy about 1,200 light years wide.

This pretty much proves that in RW universe humanity has much more than 5 stars, it most likely has many hundreds of systems. The next point i have against the firefly theory is based on the assumption that Tynan respects the laws of physics of our reality (and so far there was no reason to think he doesn't). If the assumption is true, this video becomes related to the topic:
(YouTube)Could the Firefly Universe Exist?
And yep, i've read about ground caravans and i'm really happy they're going to exist. But as far as orbital traders are in the game, the issue is not gone.

I can. Primarily because building an orbit capable ship is apparently well within the reach of any group of shmucks that happens to crash land on a planet and can gather enough materials for it.

If 5-15 player colonists can build a system ship from scratch in a few years or less it kinda set a precedent on the ease by which system ships can be built and used. Combine the apparent abundance of drop pods with orbital ships being able to travel to any geosynchronous position a hell of a lot faster than any atmospheric craft and suddenly space ships seem quite a bit more appealing.

That's actually a really good point that i missed. Actually, in a universe where building a spaceship is that easy, space traders can occur much more frequently. However, this still leaves a contradiction. That is:
If it's that easy to build a spaceship for an entire group of people using only what that group is capable of, why are there still towns on a rimworld? They should be gone rather soon, unless there's a reason for them to stay.
Ar they too low tech? But then there's a precedent of the player's colony, that get's to space-travel tech level in a few years, it should be even easier in a town of a few thousand inhabitants.

[erdrik]

...
If it's that easy to build a spaceship for an entire group of people using only what that group is capable of, why are there still towns on a rimworld? They should be gone rather soon, unless there's a reason for them to stay.
Ar they too low tech? But then there's a precedent of the player's colony, that get's to space-travel tech level in a few years, it should be even easier in a town of a few thousand inhabitants.

I think the difference is in motivation.
The goal of your colonists is apparently to get offworld.
Tribals are too low tech and Pirates love isolated areas to hide in.
But the other towns may not want to leave.
Maybe the planet was actually their intended destination.
Or maybe they crashed and just decided not to leave.

Its not like everyone on the planet came from the same ship.

[JesterHell]

Thank you for such a big response, even though i'm going to disagree with some of your points, i respect you for making effort to proclaim and prove them

Thanks and feel free too disagree, outside the word of god there is no correct answer. 

Rimworlds - Distant and isolated planets lacking in strong central government and low in population density (1). These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology or lower. Because they're not homogenized by a central government(2), they tend to see a lot of interaction between people of different technology levels, as travelers crashland or ancient closed valut communities open up.

I'll come back to this in a bit, see points 1 & 2.

I'd like to note the word "isolated". Maybe it's not as bad as "forgotten" but still, it's a pretty strong word. Also, it says that "These places tend to hover around the industrial level of technology", which reduces the chance of a small high tech society being there. But it's not excluded completely, so maybe it's possible.

The possibility of it existing however improbable is all we need, after all probability almost guaranty's that alien life exists somewhere out there but Tynan has established that "true" aliens just don't exist in this setting.

Mechanoid facilities is a good theory that would also explain occasional mechanoid raids.

Thanks.

Now to the whole firefly thing. Rimworld may be inspired by the series, but not in such literal way. It might at some point feel like you're on a firefly's "Rim Planet", but it's certainly not the same thing. Let's check the lore:

Humanity is smeared across a region of the galaxy about 1,200 light years wide.

I didn't mean that the Rimworld universe was literally the same, you know with copyrights and all, just that the inspiration for Rimworld a has Core World Government called the Alliance (2) that don't care about the low tech Rim "planets" (1) which are frequently attacked by Reavers (pirate's) and that a similar setup could explain the frequency of space traders without the lore contradicting itself.

This pretty much proves that in RW universe humanity has much more than 5 stars, it most likely has many hundreds of systems. The next point i have against the firefly theory is based on the assumption that Tynan respects the laws of physics of our reality (and so far there was no reason to think he doesn't).

I never said they had only five stars as they could have thousands, just that the player happens to be on one of the worlds in orbiting one of these five stars. hell given that there are "transcendental" human society's out there and that ship that go into their space can disappear then such a setup could be created and controlled by such a society just for fun or even experimental purpose's... e.g. the player 

If the assumption is true, this video becomes related to the topic:
(YouTube)Could the Firefly Universe Exist?

This is why I finished my last reply saying that how contradicting you find Rimworld lore is dependent on your point of view, because I watched that video and I heard a lot of "possible but Improbable" but not a single its impossible.

the chance of finding five stars each orbited by a brown dwarf is about 1 in 3 million

that's better odds then winning the lotto.

real world stars like those in the verse are at least 3-4x less likely to have any planets

less likely isn't the same as impossible.

when you consider the probability of finding five stars orbiting each other, with six brown dwarf companions, plus the dozens of planets and moons within their stars habitual zone, our chances of finding a real life version of the "Verse" are pretty low

So it's not impossible which means Tynan can use this "super" system and still respect physics but choose to ignore probability in favor of what makes for good storytelling and when you consider that Rimworld already defies probability with the complete non-existence of "true" alien life then the existence of such an improbable system becomes less of an issue... for me at least.

And yep, i've read about ground caravans and i'm really happy they're going to exist. But as far as orbital traders are in the game, the issue is not gone.

Add in ground caravans and reduce the frequency of space traders would make it easier to rationalize the how's and why's of their existence, also this is less of an issue if there is even 1 other inhabitable planet nearby and it becomes a non-issue once you reach Firefly's levels of populated planets.

All of which can technically exist in a single super system far out from the galactic core and however unlikely that is, its not impossible.

I can. Primarily because building an orbit capable ship is apparently well within the reach of any group of shmucks that happens to crash land on a planet and can gather enough materials for it.

If 5-15 player colonists can build a system ship from scratch in a few years or less it kinda set a precedent on the ease by which system ships can be built and used. Combine the apparent abundance of drop pods with orbital ships being able to travel to any geosynchronous position a hell of a lot faster than any atmospheric craft and suddenly space ships seem quite a bit more appealing.

That's actually a really good point that i missed. Actually, in a universe where building a spaceship is that easy, space traders can occur much more frequently. However, this still leaves a contradiction. That is:
If it's that easy to build a spaceship for an entire group of people using only what that group is capable of, why are there still towns on a rimworld? They should be gone rather soon, unless there's a reason for them to stay.
Ar they too low tech? But then there's a precedent of the player's colony, that get's to space-travel tech level in a few years, it should be even easier in a town of a few thousand inhabitants.

I said that I felt like the ease of ship building was a place holder and I found this old thing which suggests the current easy is not intended.

So basically, making the ship means collecting lots of tough-to-get resources by trading, theft, construction, research, etc and assembling them into the ship.

I really want to do some drama at the end of the game where not all the colonists can go, or really bad things start happening just as you approach the finish line. Again, this is all storyteller-driven. Because that's how real stories work best - great challenge near the climactic finish line. No reason we can't generate that adaptively in a simulation.

It's also possible that colonists could start exhibiting some special behaviors when they anticipate being left behind (like pre-emptive psychotic breaks).

Also there this more recent one on the topic of research which should make shipbuilding a bit harder.

There is much, much more research in A13, with several tiers involving multiple different research facilities. So this should satisfy you, for a while, I hope

Hi Ty,
Will there be categories/visual tree of the research in A13?

No, the interface will probably be the same. Might improve it for future though. It was fine before but it's a bit overloaded now.

Seems like ship building might not be as quick and easy of a process as it was before.

[erdrik]

...Seems like ship building might not be as quick and easy of a process as it was before.

Its still not going to be "Industrial Infrastructure" levels of difficult tho.
However difficult, or however many loops the player has to go through, the game has still been designed around a max population of about ~15 colonists.

Unless its going to take decades to build the ship it is still relatively simple enough that system ships would be a common thing.

[JesterHell]

Its still not going to be "Industrial Infrastructure" levels of difficult tho.
However difficult, or however many loops the player has to go through, the game has still been designed around a max population of about ~15 colonists.

Unless its going to take decades to build the ship it is still relatively simple enough that system ships would be a common thing.

While that is true I do think it shows that shipbuilding isn't supposed to be as easy as it is and is subject to change.

Also if you treat construction like cooking and lock certain building options by skill or skills then you can have a situation where research is treated like scientific knowledge so building the ship could require min 15 construction and min 18 research.

After all you want someone whom can understand high level physics to build your ship's power plant or else it explodes when you switch it on, combine this with increased salvage requirements by adding more things that the player can't just build like the AI core and you can end up in a situation where your ship is a space junker held together by duct tape and chewing gum and is far below the specs of a industrial production ship.


I also found this which while being very old and far from a promise it does help contextualize how Tynan views/viewed the ship.

-snip-

Perhaps you guys would find it fun to have a couple different endgames. Maybe a short one, where you outfit an expedition to leave and try to get to some distant city. And a middle one, where you can build the ship after a period of research and construction. And a long one, where you conquer the area and become more than just a little colony. And players who want to bypass all these can just play forever. I think the idea of different "exit ramps" to end the game at different points might be interesting, so people can choose the length of experience they want. Just an idea.

So if Tynan does decide to act on this idea then a "short" victory might take 1-2 years, a "medium" one 5-10 years and a "long" one 20+ years.

TL;DR
My point is basically as an alpha Rimworld's gameplay mechanics can't be considered indicative of what the finale product will be so criticizing the Lore based upon what I think the evidence suggests is just a place holder system is kind of excessive imho.