Iron men mode - FoW - Simplified missions and other suggestions

[wbonxx]

(already posted in the devblog, since became long I'm copy pasting here)

Few suggestion:

MOST IMPORTANT: Iron man Mode
We need an iron man mode where we can't save and reload as soon as someone dies... is not fun to self educate to do so.
More cool if there's an option.

First:    FoW
I meant fog of war  in my previous post... my brain gets guru med. some time.
Anyway FoW would force to have sentinels... checking the perimeter, outposts, sensors of various type, cameras... sentry in the prison block.
Dogs could smell foreiners from far away.... be used to follow tracks to a spot.

Second suggestion:   FOREINERS
I would also improve the interaction with visitors. Offer them food or medicines or buy little things (not necessarily big stocks like from caravans). Offer fun, or get info.

Third:       Missions in the outerworld
It could be simply implemented with an option... send X men with X equipment to this Area to gather resources. Or to this map to interact. Then some statistic is solved and the men come back with Y stuff or die trying.
Otherwise it could be implemented in a slightly more complex way: like loading some premade maps with a base (maybe from other players) to visit with a bunch of men with basic equipment. Visiting is affected by relationsship (get shot or feeded - friendly).
What players does can effect outcome, really simple, you kill/steal you get killed. But if you are starving or need medicine, must be tried.

Fourth:   Optimization big map - many objects
An easy way to prevent having too many objects to deal with could be fasten the deterioration... or calling from time to time an acid rain that burns everything is outside.
Maybe limit the stacking of the same object by converting many - single food to ex. Box of food.

[Limdood]

The player is not the colony leader or a superpawn or the AI head of the colony or even a benevolent god.  The player is a co-storyteller.  It is part of their job to know everything going on in the game.  I'm very against fog of war or even unnanounced things that require the player to "notice" to be properly dealt with.

item optimization will also happen at some point.  The game isn't meant to be played on such large maps anyways, its in the description.  If item optimization is implemented to smooth the big maps for decent computers, they'll probably add another few map sizes for super computers, starting the cycle all over again.  As far as acid rain or faster item degradation....no.

Iron man mode exists in games where there are rewards for completing things...usually iron man mode increases score or reward to trade off for having a harder challenge.  Since rimworld doesn't HAVE any rewards like that, iron man mode isn't needed.  A player can just decide not to reload autosaves to avoid events.  If they self-impose that restriction, then decide to break it, then they clearly WANT to go back, thus an iron man mode would inevitably cause more frustration, with the only potential benefit being helping a player that doesn't have the willpower to play a colony thru without dodging catastrophes - and even that player is likely to get pissed at losing the option (that they clicked) to go back and reload.

For the missions outside the map, this has already been proposed in PLENTY of other threads...generally with easier and smoother implementation than what is proposed here.  It also hasn't gotten any official "in the works" from Tynan, so it likely isn't in the works any time soon.

[mumblemumble]

Doesn't rimworld already have an iron man mode?

Also I'm against the artificial premise that since we are not a "person"  or "ai"  that everything needs to be announced to us.  Spies for instance could be very cool,  if implemented as colonists who join,  occasionally do espionage / sabotage,  but its not announced,  and you only notice if you ever see them doing it.

Vigilance in checking should be a factor.

[Limdood]

Vigilance in checking should be a factor.

I disagree...its a simulation/storytelling game.  Its not an RTS.  The concern is HOW you deal with complications, not IF you deal with them (or even notice them).  The answer to how to deal with a problem should NEVER be "you should pause every game-hour and scan the whole map"

[mumblemumble]

Uhm ,  the "if"  you deal with complications,  or even notice is a factor even if you don't think it is.  Things causing mood debufs,  critters eating crops, room temperatures, efficient paths,  ect,   and surely more stuff to come are never "announced",  but require monitoring to avoid consequences.

Besides that, why CAN'T rimworld have rts elements (more than it already has,  combat is very much an rts / xcom turn based hybrid ) ? Its already a game which doesn't fit many labels,  which makes it rather great. Why not have such things be in place? Arbitrary need to stay within a "gerne"?  Why can't simulators also have stuff which aren't explicitly announced,  arbitrarily limiting possibilities because certain game play ideas are blacklisted due to it being  "an rts thing"?

And especially with storytelling / relationships coming soon,  how can you reject the idea of spies,  just on the basis of   "if it isn't explicitly announced,  it doesn't belong"?  I think a spy from another faction would be an amazing story telling device,  especially if they romanced one of your colonists.

I just don't see how you can reject ideas only because you think rimworld is x and not y,  so z doesn't belong.

[Limdood]

Fine.  Lets refine it down to the basic argument.

You said vigilance in checking in should be a factor.  I disagree.  Vigilance in checking in should NOT be a factor.

Edited to add (btw, NOT part of my disagreement, but a refutation of your above points)
mood debuffs are an announced factor (poor mood notification)  room temps give a belated "colonist needs treatment" notification.  Critters eating crops and efficient pathing can be designed in, and are completely avoidable in any case...not so with "spies"

Additionally, spies from other factions do exist....the "agent" event, which as far as i'm aware has been disabled, or is so unlikely i've never seen it naturally happen in over a hundred games since i started playing at the beginning of A12.  Any speculation as to WHY it doesn't happen is just that, speculation, but i'd imagine it having to do with having a pawn you've worked on for ages suddenly just "be bad" isn't fun.

Have you further noticed that broken pawns no longer wander off the map out of the colony?  Another stupid "have to be paying constant attention at all times to this one thing" issue, which apparently the developer saw fit to remove.

[mumblemumble]

Ah.  I gotcha.  Well,  i don't mean Vigilance as in "fuck i look away for 2 seconds and now everyone is dead",  i mean Vigilance as in giving everything a look at once in a while really helps.  Which already exists as cleaning a hospital,  keeping rodents out of gardens,  keeping sanity up,  ect.

I imagine in the specific case of spies,  if you saw someone on your comms console without putting them there,  you would be suspicious,  check,  and arrest them,  BUT,  this is only if you bother to notice,  and ask "wait,  if i put them on research,  why are they at my comms?"  and investigate.

Same could be said of sabotage,  like them doing construction on turrets which don't need repairs,  planting a bomb... No notification  ,  but they do it in plain sight ,  and investigation could reveal the plot to do so.

This is what i mean by unannounced.. noticeable,  detectable,  preventable,  but not announced to you,  should you be busy watching muffalos mate across the map.

And should you fail to detect before its too late,  next raid will be far more devastating than normal.

[Limdood]

I would not like it personally, and don't think it would fit with the spirit of the game, if you "couldn't trust your own colonists" - as it is, because you, the player, can't really directly DO anything, the game really relies on colonists carrying out their orders at all times to the best of their abilities.  The whole thing screams colony vs. world.  Is it a bit cheesy that prisoners can spend 2 years in prison as your enemies, and then suddenly become a perfectly contributing member of the colony?  sure, but because there is no way to have a pawn "watch" another pawn, its just left that way.  If espionage was added, you'd basically have to add a whole new skill to pawns - vigilance.  How would you even level it up?  would it actually enhance the game to have to set a portion of your colony just to make sure the other portion does what its supposed to?  I personally don't think the game would be improved to make me not be able to trust someone doing "repair" work to actually repair the object, or trust someone "shooting" to not intentionally turn and shoot colonist next to them in the head.

However, i'm trying to give your idea a fair hearing, and have been thinking while typing.  I don't think you need "sneaky treason" to have espionage happen...

what about just adding a new raid type (in addition to siege, sapper, immediate, preparing).  Something like "Pirates from Beaver's Codpiece are attacking you!  They are surveying your defenses in preparation for a large attack!  Either eliminate them before they complete their survey or marshall your defenses for a large attack." 

Or maybe "Pirates from Jerk's Annoyance are attacking!  They've sent out a sabateur squad.  Be vigilant, they will split up and try to cause as much damage as possible to different parts of your colony in preparation for a larger attack to come."  Obviously the coding on this would be harder, and would do very little to a mountain base (though i could see them just spreading out, then attacking the nearest walls to break in or starting fires nearby outside your colony).

These would be spy and sabateur THEMED, but not require traitorous colonists.

[mumblemumble]

Who said Vigilance had to be a skill for colonists? I mean Vigilance of the overseer,  planner,  colony consensus,  whatever you want to call the player. It would be relatively simple,  just arrest / resolve the issues,  by ordering the colonists once you spot proof of them.

It could be particularly interesting for large "impregnable"  colonies,  as the  greed for more workers could make them more vulnerable and blind to risks

I think you are making far bigger assumptions than are warented for them,   i never suggested a new skill,  just that enemies could infiltrate as wanderers or even converted prisoners,  and you would have to notice them NOT doing as told  (this really shouldn't be that damn hard,  standing around a comms terminal,  or randomly working on a turret should be stupidly obvious to spot to an observant eye) and then deal with it from there,  perhaps arresting them,  killing them,  undoing traps set / minimizing how badly you were compromised. Unless you literally never watch your colonists, or have a HUGE base,  this should be easy. So i don't get why this is such an issue.  In fact,  the more i think about it,  the more i wonder if this event would even be worth it if you could see them doing shady stuff,  just because it would be so very easy to catch them when you have a birds eye view of LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

Yeah.. A colonist going in to nick silver,  walking up and working on an undamaged machine,  or using the comms terminal when not ordered should be incredibly obvious.

Also,  I'm not even talking about "any",  colonist,  but an event that starts with either "wanderer joins",  or "prisoner recruited"  once you are pretty deep in the game.  Starter colonists would obviously never have this happen,  as would rescued spacers,  ect.

It would be select people who join in specific,  infiltratable ways like a "wanderer",  joined prisoner,  a person followed by raiders,  or something which could be falsified.

Then they have an invisible marking / job list,  helping with the colony but also rarely making brief sabotages,  calls to the true faction base,  ect,  lasting a week or more till a raid happens with stealthy traps set,  like electrical grid going down,  certain devices malfunctioning,  ect,  but by this point, they will have been there a week,  and not at one point did you think "hold on,  why is gary messing with my turrets?" or something similar. If you DO arrest him after uncovering something  ,  there's no colony debuff for selling,  killing,  or parting them out,  and you might even be able to sell them back.

[Limdood]

In that case...i'm absolutely opposed, and would probably uninstall or sorely neglect the game if it were implemented.  I would find that no fun, and in fact, to ruin all of the fun of the game if it ever happened to me.

[mumblemumble]

I think you are grossly exaggerating,  if you had 8-10 + colonists,  this would not at all be crippling nor unpreventable.

Especially if it were one of many,  many possible events... Dumping a game because a slim possibility of happening? Cmon.  I didn't dump rimworld when my favorite colonist became a vegetable from a head injury...

Its not like the gain / loss of a colonist for a 1-2 week period would be game breaking,  and i really don't see why you are so vehemently against it,  unless you absolutely hate losing colonists that much  ,  but again,  event could occur at a minimum population check.

[Limdood]

I'd dump it because the fundamental premise of the game would be changed. 

it would no longer be a management game...when pawns stop executing their assigned jobs in their assigned order to the best of their ability, the structure of the game is broken.  There wouldn't be a clear, preventable REASON for it happening, like a mental break...it would just happen, without anything like me sticking him into a line of fire to take a bullet to the brain.  The colonist is just....dead...or worse.  So the prisoner i've been trying to recruit for ages because he's got a skill i could really use in my colony finally joins....gotcha!  he's a sleeper!  he just exploded 3 of your turrets and ran off the map!  or wait...you can spot him messing with the turrets...and arrest him...because it worked SO WELL last time arresting him and getting him to join...

[mumblemumble]

Yeah,  definitely exaggerating...

I would honestly think if this event was made ,  prisoners would join on the first,  maybe 2nd try,  just so they can get to work.  No sense having an agent locked up for a year voluntarily,  the faction obviously wants them back eventually.

As for arresting them  ,  not to recruit them again,  that is a MASSIVE assumption on your part.  I mean to trade them away for money,  or perhaps a colonist of yours they captured.  Ever heard of prisoner exchange?

They wouldn't instantly blow up your base,  it would take time,  like along a weeks time,  and you have all that time to notice them out of place,  being where they shouldn't,  finding sabotaging devices,  ect.  If you never detect them in a weeks time  (again,  seeing them on comms,  stealing resources they don't need,  messing with devices there is no reason to touch,  ect)  then yes,  possibly a turret or 2 blow up,  a few doors get jammed shut,  and you have a bad time. Course,  you had plenty of time to notice them in rooms they shouldn't be in,  doing work they shouldn't do (construction of any sort if construction is a disabled priority for them should be a dead give away.) and if you fail to observe this at all,  along all this time,  yeah ,  you get shafted a bit. 

This does not break the game,  especially as a rare,  late game event. And not everything is preventable in rimworld (heatwaves,  raids,  fallout,  good luck preventing those,  you don't you cope)  and this is very preventable,  by observing them doing stuff that obviously isn't ordered to be done ,  and arresting them.  In reality,  probably the easiest event if it was ever made.

You are flipping out and exaggerating so bad its kind of sad.  Just becbeca one colonist in potentially an entire playthrough might be a backstabber doesn't mean the game would be "broken".  Its actually funny because i see at as incredibly unlikely for the spy to succeed,  yet you act like if it was implemented,  your bases would be instantly doomed,  because you seem to view yourself as incapable of noticing what a colonist is doing.  Im starting to dislike the idea,  but for a reason polar opposite of yours.

But whatever,  its a hypothetical idea.  I'm not tynan,  and I'm not on the team,  so it doesn't really matter.

But i find it funny you view a small,  singular event which is preventable with any colonist capable of arresting,  more doomsday provoking than anything in the game so far.

[Limdood]

I'd feel the same if the "agent" event happened.

I'm not concerned about un-preventable base damage.  I'm concerned about losing a colonist...just flat out...that colonist that is a spy is GONE.  So far nothing you've said in any way implies that the spy will be able to continue on as part of the colony after his move.  I don't want the game just "killing" a pawn of mine in an unpreventable event.  show me one instance where THAT currently happens in game, other than the agent event that doesn't currently happen.

also:

Ever heard of prisoner exchange?

no...in rimworld as it exists now, i have not, because it doesn't currently exist...

also, if you link it only to prisoners or wanderer events late game (and using your mentioned 1st or second try recruiting, i'm assuming the prisoner would have a low ~50 recruitment difficulty) then no, i'd never suffer from this event...it would only be there to troll new or uninformed players, who wouldn't know that a prisoner never has that low of a difficulty if captured after you have, say, 15 pawns, and that wanderers never join after a certain colonist threshold.  If that were the case, the event would be even more reprehensible than i find it already.

[AllenWL]

If 'agents' where ever in the game, I think they should only come in certain events, which have certain 'tells' that warn you of a potential spy.

For example, a 'spy' might only come in a 'request shelter' event, and the event could be separated from other events by the raiders chasing the new 'recruit' giving up much faster(ex: a single death makes them leave). Or a new 'defect' event could happen, with a person from a hostile faction 'defecting' to your side with a chance of being a spy.

Also, a 'spy' should only be active for a few weeks at most before doing whatever they do and getting out of the colony, because let's face it, having a 'defector' join, not cause any big problems for a year, then showing his true colors is going to be annoying.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell what colonist is where and if he shouldn't be if you have a large colony, so I think there should be 'tells' and a time limit so if you find someone who's suspicious, have you keep a eye on him for a bit and done, rather then 'try to keep a eye on every recruit ever because hey, one of them might be a spy'