Re: "Gay" as a trait -- split from Suggestions

[mumblemumble]

Straight bashing goes a bit deeper than just beatings, no place, bushiness, or other entity can really call themselves "exclusively straight" without risking absolute hell from LGBT activists. This limits many, many peoples rights. Lets say customers want a place without outwardly gay / trans people... that simply CANNOT legally exist now, and must find a way to allow them in even if a service is specifically catered to straight men and women. Look at the whole wedding cake sitution. Keep in mind, with capitalism, there will ALWAYS be people out there willing to make a buck. Yet gay people often times go out of their way to find straight, orthodox bakeries and force them to either make a cake, or have the business bombarded with potentially business ruining fines. Keep in mind, THIS IS NOT because they cannot find another place, believe me, this is NOT the reason, it is because they want to hurt a business that dares not include them. This essentially gives the message "Abandon your beliefs or die of poverty", which is borderline economic terrorism, especially because several bakeries would even have worked with them to point them to a bakery that doesn't care. Its not "suppressing" them to not want business with them, but it IS suppressing the business owners for personal choice, as you completely force the buisness, or punish them severely, not so for those wishing to buy a cake.

Ontop of that, media really does not cover "select" issues, so issues of violence, threats, coercion, ect, so of course it seems MUCH lower than it really is. There are cases out there, more than 4 where abuses have happened. This isn't just hate crimes, but crimes in general which aren't covered heavily despite the nature sometimes depending on offenders backgrounds.

One recent case was in texas another bakery situation, but where the family was harassed with threats ranging from burning their house down, to raping their son with a broken beer bottle....so yeah, definitely exists. Not to mention how strangely, gay people are more accepted / get more benefits on colleges than straight people...yeah.

not to mention tons of forums, businesses, web sights, nearly all govt operations will penalize you for even remotely speaking against anyone LGBT, which is censorship in itself, forcing people with different opinions into silence, or punishing them with fines, bans, lack of service, or other injuries for even so much as a criticism.

But if you aren't going to respond anymore, fine by me  you obviously don't have the patience, nor willpower for a lengthy debate, which is fine.

[mumblemumble]

Saying we want OUR business to be the way we like does not mean we are douche-bags, that is a personal attack. People can, and do, choose not to buy from businesses because of it. And again, you completely ignore the fact that the effects are massively disproportionate. A gay couple denied a cake has to find another bakery. A straight business owner denied his right to express his faith has to either have the faith silenced, or have his business driven into the ground, by fines, and quite possibly arson attacks. If you really think that is remotely fair, think of it this way : Imagine a gay graphics artist or whatever was commissioned to do work of (non violent) antigay promotional material. If he denied it on the grounds of it is against his beliefs, now imagine that he now would get his business shut down, and possibly attacked just on that basis. Keep in mind, this is the EXACT same situation, but roles reversed, the gay man is rejecting work for beliefs when there SURELY are alternatives around, yet he would be persecuted for not supporting them. Though, considering your tone, and insulting me and others, as well as a pointless passive aggressive tone which adds nil to the argument with your ENTIRE response, its pretty clear you aren't debating anymore, and don't have valid points, you are just hoping to jab at people / instigate them into making this thread a madhouse so it gets locked. I will not have part in that, I will remain civil, refrain from insults, and keep it to debating my point. I recommend all others reading this who even remotely share any of my positions, as well as those that disagree with every single one, to do the same.

Also, you have no proof that I am white, christian, or other things, so that shows your thought process being flawed.. I'm actually agnostic with ideals taken from Christianity, Bhuddism, Taoist and others, I form my views from looking closely at things, and seeing which is right feeling, and logically sound. I'm not against transgenders because "god told me to be", I'm against it because I see the suffering it causes, and WHAT causes it, same thing for gays. Understanding the "whys" in life is a big part of my ideals, and if a why is not stated / is not logical, or has flaws, I'm critical of it, including myself. And focusing on my race, when it has nothing to do with the topic, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this entire conversation, as your post equates to "poor you douchebag *sarcasm*" but with more words, so it only makes you look bad, impolite, snarky, and rude, while also being childishly presumptuous. Ask what I am before you speak on what you THINK I am, don't assume. I could assume a lot of things about you for being gay (or even that you are gay...), but I will not, I will let you answer for yourself when I ask before I make an assumption to pass judgement on. Also, not everyone against homosexuality / transexualism is white (my black pastor is very much against it) male (more women are against it often especially because a boyfriend having been gay makes infection of themselves much more likely than a straight guy statistically speaking) or christian (Muslims routinely hang gay folks in the middle east among other things, I'm just trying to convince people the problems of it)

As for locking this thread, no...I hope if your tactic of trying to lock this thread by causing a fight only gets you disciplined, because I personally am not rising to that childish kind of game and ruining the amazing dialog had in this thread. If you want to insult me, use jokes, provoke, and generally provide absolutely nothing into the thread like your last post, trying to cause drama (despite saying you want to prevent it?) Then go ahead. I won't rise to it, as its not even an argument, its not a debate on your point, not a counterpoint, refutation, new evidence, alerting me of a flaw, or anything, its childish poking and teasing, nothing more. Be childish all you want, I won't budge an inch from it, if you want to convince me like an adult go ahead. But passive aggressiveness and childish mocking will get you nowhere.

Try having a conversation like an adult, rejecting things on merits, pros, cons, risks and fully examining possibilities, and refraining from insults / attacks, I will take you more seriously. I disagree with zoophilia, to a certain extent, but admittedly a bit less because someone on this forum had quite a pleasant, civil PM discussion about it, where most gay / trans people in the past very quickly devolved into stuff along the lines of "fuck you bigot, go die in a fire", and I say that getting that line, or its equivalent more times than I can count for so much as voicing criticism on either a forum, or in person. If you want me to view you and your cause better, civility is the FIRST step to doing so.

[milon]

Play nice, kids, or we'll take away your sand box.

Look guys, this is a highly personal & emotionally charged issue. There's been both flirting with the line (please step away from the line) and good discussion (let's continue that). I expect everyone to continue to be level headed and non-inflammatory. If you're upset by something, take 5 before posting a reply. Don't feed the trolls, and don't encourage us to use Mjolnir.

Other than that, keep calm and carry on.

[Noobshock]

"Make sure you acknowledge my tiny minority in your game design or else ill throw a tantrum!" ffs people

[JesterHell]

Directed at jester (cannot be arsed to quote EVERYTHING) and I also wrote as I read, so bare with it.

I don't blame you for not quoting and I did the same just across multiple posts, ended up with a bit of dissonance on my part because of it.

You could maybe make the argument for gay, les, but viewing as the purpose of sexuality by evolution is procreation, these things are a bit abnormal. Not saying these are evil, But they are, and you insisting that its not is trying to insist that everything is normal. As for trans, that is desiring self mutilation which in itself is DEEPLY abnormal, so under standard evolutionary points, these are not normal, the fact they are an extreme minority also displays this.

I agree, it is abnormal from a statistical point of view and would not argue otherwise but from the perspective of those effected by this abnormality it is normal.

The idea of someone being born that way is bs. There is absolutely no proof of a "gay" gene, and sexuality has been proven countless times to be flexible through events. A girl who is raped and abused can become lesbian due to her strong distrust towards males afterwards, to the point the normal sex drive and attraction to males simply cannot function well, and she will vent affection and need for touch on a suitable replacement, because trying to do so with males can cause panic reminding her of the rape.

That just sound like PTSD to me and not an actual change to their base sexuality, they can no longer tolerate the touch of the gender their sexuality wants but have to direct the base human need for affection some where and thus the "change", its nothing more then a coping mechanism.

I honestly think that whole brain scan stuff is bullshit. Chicken or the egg argument, brain scans can change from someone putting tits in a straight mans face because he gets aroused and that shows. Brain scans are not "this is how their brain was born", not remotely, they represent a snapshot of how people are thinking. Culture, society, upbringing, and what they are experiencing in that moment DO determine neural mechanisms, as do drug intakes.

Lots of things do change brain activity but the brain scan info isn't about brain activity but the physiological "build" of it.

A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

To get round this, Savic and her colleague, Per Lindström, chose to measure brain parameters likely to have been fixed at birth.

"That was the whole point of the study, to show parameters that differ, but which couldn't be altered by learning or cognitive processes," says Savic.

First they used MRI scans to find out the overall volume and shapes of brains in a group of 90 volunteers consisting of 25 heterosexuals and 20 homosexuals of each gender.

The results showed that straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger – and the gay women also had this asymmetry. Gay men, meanwhile, had symmetrical brains like those of straight women.

The team next used PET scans to measure blood flow to the amygdala, part of the brain that governs fear and aggression. The images revealed how the amygdala connected to other parts of the brain, giving clues to how this might influence behaviour.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/

Past studies have shown that brain activity linked to sexual behavior differs between homosexuals and heterosexuals. But this study is the first to show that the cerebral networks themselves are also different, Savic said.

Fight or Flight?

Differences both in the brain activity and anatomy were observed in a study involving 90 men and women, including homosexuals and heterosexuals of both genders.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain.html

I know it all the same in but its from different sources, as I understand it these finding have yet to be refuted.

Good, hope tynan adds faiths.

A beliefs system should be about more then just religious faith.

Depends what you view as hate crimes, and the results of both. If a guy gets socially beat up and recovers, compared to a dog dying and a colonist losing shit and killing the person who did it? yeah, I think its worse. Also depends on the value of the colonist of course. Its really hard to say since everything in rimworld is situational as fuck.

The gay guy could also quite easily get beaten to death and the zoo could just beat the dogs killer to near death, like you said its situational and people are gonna be upset when a valuable pawn die regardless of why so adding more potential "why's" adds flavor in my mind.

You said it would be interesting, with beleifs, yet aren't you saying LGBT people in game shouldn't be discriminated against?  That wouldn't be remotely fair or realistic to say, include christianity, or islam and expect gay or ESPECIALLY trans people to be accepted, you know this right? especially in the middle east, trans people are targeted and abused. Plus, as I've said before, I have no problem them being added IF, all the hardships of abuse, being shunned socially, getting attacked, discrimination, and all that was included.

I just like playing devils advocate, I don't personally care if anything we discuss here get added or not and I'm actually apathetic to the LGBT cause, I just felt like playing on this side of the fence this time. 

I was talking on a basis STRICTLY of benefit to the colony stability, NOT "amusement". You can't tell me a transexual who gets on some peoples nerves, spends hundreds of  silver a month on hormones, and wants surgery would be more useful than a normal guy with same stats across the board, right? No,  because one is demanding a bunch of things, one isn't.

Jealous pawns already make demands of sorts and adding more negative traits can result in players having to deal with more internal politic/social issues and that's a big part of running any society, even one that is comprised of drifters, vagabonds and castaways on a Rimworld in the ass end of space.

K, yeah, I agree Tynan gets the last say, but I also say wanting raids on other places is more popular a want than LGBT stuff. Even if you disagree, its still the popular opinion those who REALLY want more LGBT stuff seem to be an extremely vocal minority.

I don't disagree with this at all but if people are going to bring what they do or don't want into the discussion it's only fair that I reply in kind.

My problem is wasting time coding JUST because an obscure person wants to be "included".  It would provide very little to GAMEPLAY (read: not emergent story, those can be interpreted a million different ways, and you could argue someone dying from plague and dying from malaria are different stories) to the mix, and just add more negative (read : difficult to manage) traits to the mix, all because a vocal minority is demanding it. Its simply not worth the coding for an obscure case, just as I suggested ty keep animals from eating dead masters, he told me that "small, obscure hyper specific AI generally isn't a necessary when its only seen in an extremely small amount of cases". Programming in monthly hormone injections, super complex social transformations, ect, stigma, would take a long time, for a person we might never really get a chance to see.

I agree that if it is added on its own then it would be a waste of time and effort on Tynan's part that would not add anything to gameplay BUT I'm not thinking about it as a solitary addition but rather as a part of a potential beliefs and justice system, once a belief and justice systems are added to the mix it does start to provide gameplay opportunities.

[JesterHell]

Thats nice, still doubt a bladder system will be needed, especially considering theres no water system yet. Plus bladder system means more micromanagement for no reason, which ty doesn't take lightly.

I doubt it will be added as well but I don't think it means more micromanagement, much like eating I imagine it would be handled by the AI with player mearly needing to add a little more infastuctuer, also adding a "bladder" need give the basis for adding fertilizers for crops.

Cool, I can finally agree....If added this way, and an LGBT colonist gets killed at some point, or frequently abused, or just socially shunned / disowned by parents, don't come back complaining.

I wont complain, others will though.

Are you suggesting zoophiles inheriently would have high animal stats? What if they don't have a bonded animal? Would they agree to never persue tail because "they aren't mine"? These questions need to be answered. And I think having an animal always cool with it / having it only be if tames is a little optimistic. Certainly if there's was a whole farms worth, temptation would be there.

Not so much as a high animal stat as a "passion" for animals.   

As for animals that aren't theirs is something that the zoo community seems to argues amongst themselves about, fence hopper is the term they use for those that jump fences to have a "go" with the farm animals of others and admittedly many are for it but also many against it.

Difference is one would be, in that moment, responsible for assault. I guess this could apply to gays as well if gay people had a slim chance to try to force straight people if there were no other gays, but this would quickly end with a firing squad. Yeah, that would be dark, but it happens in real life.

My point was that disliking them is what leads to hate crimes eg assaults and even without rape gays can be the subject of a witchhunt.

Again, I'm fine them being added IF they were added with all the risks / problems that they really have (depression, anger, social problems, shunned by family, expensive hormone treatment, possibility of being warped / killed / infected by surgery, depression / suicide risk AFTER surgery ect) but I know if that stuff would be added, rimworld WOULD be taking fire for it. So no, its not worth it. Would be a kick ass mod though, and modders are more politically immune than actually developers.

Public relations is a subject I'm liable to always fail, being as I don't really care what others think of me and I do think its more likely as a mod then in vanilla, I'm merely voicing that personally I would add it and let the hater hate.

Agreed, justice system would be great, especially if "frontier" justice, not always done by any "book", but judged by the community.

If you add a beliefs system as well then each pawns opinion of each type of justice can be factored in to their opinions on the type of justice that the player dishes out.

Agreed, but, adding such stuff WOULD make rimworld a bit less popular because some people would reject the game on the basis of people could be raped.

I wont disagree and its not like either of us want the kind of people who would be attracted because of the addition of rape in the community, so I'm not surprised Tynan doesn't add it.

Slippery slope is not always a fallacy, if there is proof of trends reasons to believe, and risk of provoking a chain reaction, its reasonable. IE if you kill a prisoner in the city who people are spouting that its "racist", and are threatening to riot, you might have a riot, followed by racial tensions. This isn't a fallacy, this is a prediction of events, not always can it be "proven" but its a prediction. You can question the validity of the prediction, but that doesn't mean its instantly discarded, as my prediction for THESE threads, so far, have been spot on.

I agree that it not always a fallacy but what constitutes a reasonable prediction is however relative, that being said on evaluation yours is reasonable.

As I said, if YOU are ok with trans abuse, exclusion, excommunication, fights, ect ect, cool, but again, its risky to rim-world to add it as other people WILL FLIP, like carly (not you lady wolf =P), I'm sure if they were added, she would be extremely upset, possibly campaign against the game. Again, this is only a prediction, but she has said as much already.

Sounds like free publicity to me.

While I agree, society should harden, I'm not a fool in thinking just because some ( a lot) of people are way too sensitive about hurt feelings , I know they also might still try to muck stuff up because of it. Question is, do we want rimworld to be an awesome game, or a possible martyr for anti censorship? This said, for your cousin, its not "just" time, but mental processes to go through to fix the damage, and this isn't always dealt with in x amount of time. A person in great mental health can overcome rape in a day, while a person can be damaged for years.

Somebody has to be the first to take a stand against excessive censorship here as good a place as any, in fact as a kickstarted game without a publisher to appease it probably a great place to start.

As for my cousin, her actual farther spent a small fortune on therapy, all his savings, selling his investment property and a second mortgage on his home and despite this she ends up sleeping around with multiple guys and she wants me to be a bleeding heart, now I know that her promiscuity is because of her being over sexualised as a child but are the rest of us supposed to treat her like she made of porcelain forever?

Actually, good point, and rimworld is a niche game....maybe we should let tumbler get outraged over stuff? But hey, tynans choice not mine.

Its definitely his choice and I think he'll play it safe since he's just starting his development company.

Mass effect was massively over-rated IMO.

I 100% agree with this statement.

This is an issue with rimworld, we all have ideas of what rimworld "should be" some think it should be a survival sims, some think it should be a more personally deep command and conquer, some think it should be a base builder primarily....and none of us are right or wrong, tynan at the end of the day is the owner, and chooses how the game evolves.

I know... as a long time DF fan the concept is not new to me, I'm merely sharing my opinion on the matter.

I think modding argument is good IF the things added are obscure, add little to gameplay, and adding deeper framework to the maingame would be more beneficial. Think of it this way, if raids and location visiting was added, we could have bars / strip clubs we could potentially travel to, because the framework would be there for mods.

I'd rather run a bar or strip club then visit one, although add our own raid and location visiting raise the question of how they get there, do they walk? or maybe riding horse's, driving cars or even flying hover cars... now I've got the mental picture of tribal cavalry and pirate gunboats.

Hah, drama between certain eccentric people disliking other eccentric people. Funny stuff. The fact carly gets offended instead of realizing the similarities says a lot. And again, slippery slope is hugely mis-interpeted. If Carly is going to reject zoophiles, while demanding inclusion, it IS fair for zoophiles, and others to reject her for being trans. Equality means getting same opportunities, same punishments, same bullshit, and same chance at being judged for who you are. Saying we can call zoophiles "stinking dog assaulters" or something silly, but at the same time demanding nobody even bring up people being trans in a negative light is incredibly unequal. For the record, not calling any zoophiles that, just making a point.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I also agree zoophilia isn't always rape. Especially if a male dog mounts, that is all the dogs choice. Granted its hard to tell without verbal communication, but consent does not boil down to "if they said yes" but, "was the other person ok with it". I had sex countless times with my ex where we just jumped in the sack and had at it without a word, this wasn't rape because she obviously was ok with it. And actually, sex without verbal communication is far more enjoyable imo =) spontaneous is awesome.

I would say that how hard it is to tell depend upon your knowledge of that animals mating rituals, after all if you know how that animal acts during mating season and the "signs" of estrus/heat then its probably a lot easier to determine consent.

Agreed, equality across the board of inclusion AND ability to be criticized is important. And yes, many, MANY people including those who have felt gender dysphoria (myself) view it as a mental illness, which people prevent even the bare minimum of discussion from happening. So even if people want to examine it, point out correlations to abuse, theories supported by evidence showing their case, they are often persecuted for even saying it.

Yeah, it a sorry state of affairs when reasonable discussion can't be had of the actually causes and effects of an issue because the answers might "upset" the balance...

I was reading about a study on the psychology of apologizing to people or not and its effect of the person doing the apology and they found that there are psychological benefits to standing your ground not apologizing, there was quite a few people complaining about the study because "the point of an apology is for the well being of others and society not yourself"...

Apparently it doesn't matter what the truth found in the study is, only whether it'll make people fell good about themselves or maintain the integrity of society, personally I'm more of a horrible truth over a wonderful lie kind of guy.

Ditto.... This is why I view all sexual things as having a causation, and look at it as the merits of harm done, benefits, risks, and the whys / hows involved. For the record I find zoophilia more tolerable than transexuality, simply because I know the mental health mess behind it, mass suicide often done by post op transexuals, ect. But zoophilia people seem on average quite more stable.

Its always best to look at each case individually and then judge it on its own merits, not just slap a label of the entire subject and be done with it.

As for Zoos V Trans I don't know much about transexuality other then the obvious but I do know that some of the stuff I've read about zoo is troublesome, particularly the animal brothels they have in some places.

Yeah, I guess it not a good risk for exclusion, but again, people being offended / throwing a fit... Plus really representing them in all the depth would be sooooooooooooooo much work.

Yeah, I'm starting to think your right on both accounts, spending all that time to include it only to piss a lot of people off is not really worth Tynan's time, especially when his career as an independent dev is on the line.

I agree, and speaking to someone else on here who was a zoophile recently definitely was enlightening and they seem like a cool person, BUT, negative people in the same orientation also exist. There are straight people who are caring lovers, and straight people who are fucked up abusive people. There are gay people who lead good lives, and gay people who are "bug chasers" or have a thing for getting with straight guys by whatever means are available, including date rape... there are zoophiles who care for animals, and those that are torturous to them...I think we should represent the full spectrum, perhaps with  the sadism trait.

I think all these different traits could work so long as it was included along side both a beliefs system and a justice system, then Tynan cloud actually lessen the blow back a bit, he would be able to hold the position that it's a sandbox/simulation and that the player is given the tools to identify the risks and then deal with them as they occur.

An example being the player could decide that castrating rapists is the correct punishment or chemically gelding Zoos, basically chuck the ball back into the players court.

Lol. But yes I agree, if I can be brought to tears because a man gets dumped after having body parts blown off because hes now disfigured before dying of infection because it emotionally hurt me, why should other people have their emotions guarded? If you are that scared of emotional pain, don't play the game.

Some of the most memorable moments are the ones that make you feel that twinge, its generally considered the sign of a good story teller if they can make you feel it.

yep, very long post and response, but I love the community all the more for it. Even though I disagree with jester on some bits, I love the fact we can have an argument and not wage war from it =)

Enjoy it while it lasts, once the steam release hits I think there will be a lot of warriors for every cause joining the community and then...

[Fluffy (l2032)]

mumble, I think you'll find I've been civil over most of the discussion so far.

I however find your comments wildly offensive (and I'm normally really not bothered that much), all the more so _because_ you state them in a calm and reasonable manner. It's one thing if someone comes in screaming bigotry, quite another if someone calmly stands and explains why the LGBT community is suppressing the rights of others, using misleading and misrepresented arguments - I'll get to why I consider these misleading below.

You make at least one good point though; I shouldn't have made that post. I made it because you really, really pissed me off, and because the thread is going off-topic again. It should be about gameplay elements of sexuality in RW, not the morality of the thing (because who cares, let's cannibalize some more babies). Since this appears largely a lost cause, let me explain myself further.

First, I'd like to call you out on your manipulative attempts to win the debate by virtue of persistence. If I don't reply, or don't make a lengthy response to your arguments, that doesn't automatically mean I agree - or even that you must be right. It's much more likely to mean that I've decided I have more rewarding things to do than try to convince you of what I consider common sense and human decency, regardless of however civil your argument may be. In addition, when more than half your last post is dedicated towards a personal attack on me, aren't you being just a teenie weenie little hypocritical? At least mine was just a single line.

In your argument I can find one main line of thought, that the LGBT (or whatever PC name they have these days) community is somehow persecuting religious small business owners - and that this poses a major thread to the small businesses' existence.

I'd like to know where that comes from, because I assume it's a US thing, for two reasons. First, in Europe, freedom of religion, as does any freedom, stops where someone else's freedom begins. If your freedom of religion allows you to discriminate toward other groups, you're infringing on their fundamental rights, and their freedoms. Freedom without boundaries is no freedom at all.

Second, in Europe, I can very much decide not to work for a project I don't support. There's two exceptions to that; I can't make those decisions based on race, sexuality, religion, and so forth (because that'd be discrimination, see above), and second, if I am a government employee, I have to put my personal preferences aside and provide equal services for everyone and everything.

So to put it another way, I CAN decide not to make a cake depicting zoophilia - because I think that's statutory rape, but I CANNOT decide not to make a cake for a zoophile - because that would be discrimination based on sexuality. There's a difference.
(actually zoophilia and bestiality are both illegal here, so I probably can refuse, but that's a different point).

I can believe that there have been occasional incidents, presumably even purposeful, where individual store owners have been targeted - maybe even unfairly. But to take such sporadic incidents and turn them around on a community that IS widely discriminated against, to the point where their entire way of life is regularly condemned on public television and personal verbal and physical attacks are appallingly common, that I find extremely offensive.

The second thread I can find in your argument is an objection to the often very focal, and sometimes downright nasty online 'voices' that claim to speak for the LGBT community (or indeed any other community). While I agree with you that such voices exist, and that they are detrimental to the debate, I would also like to point out that again, these voices are still a minority up against an increasingly violent and overwhelming majority. If you want some proof on this, just go to any youtube video that even tangents upon different sexualities, and compare the number of offensive comments - or even death threats. Ask any openly gay public figure, or anyone who advocates for the LGBT community how many death threats they receive on a daily basis. Sadly, this seems to be emblematic for the entirety of the public debate, which is increasingly polarized, and where mutual respect is continuously dwindling. Heck, even just count the posts in a very sheltered and low-key environment such as this thread.

Again, especially in this light, I find it so troubling that a seemingly well reasoned individual, would come here to make such an appalling and misleading argument. I don't always agree with the LGBT community, and I certainly don't always agree with their methods - but to paint them as the cause of the problem is like blaming a slave for rebelling against his master.

[milon]

Okay, everything before this post was split off from a thread in Suggestions (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=18664.0).  It's disjointed because that happens when we have to split threads, but this better reflects the two discussions that were emerging.  Use the thread in Suggestions for discussing actual RimWorld suggestions.  Play ball!

[RickyMartini]

Jesus christ mumble, since we're off topic here I think I can finally directly say how I think how RIDICULOUS you are, and I mean this personally.

Even the stuff you said about the issue Europe faces. About how "pussified" Europeans are for not reacting to the refugee crisis. Can I ask you, where the fuck do you come from? Please, if you are from an affected country, then you have more legitimacy to talk about this stuff so ignorantly. If you don't, then seriously, stay out of our business.

[mumblemumble]

Skissor,  that sounds like a personal attack. You even admit its personal.

I never once said pussified, you are trying to character assassinate me by trying to indicate i said things i didn't.

Second,  relatively sure anti Muslim opinions there are censored in many respects especially in Europe ,  which is a factor.  No,  I'm not from Europe,  but I've read enough. The fact "immigrants"  have no background checks often ,  elevated sexual assault turning sweden into a "rape capital" ,  court reluctance to deport rapists,  and population feeling guilty for their attackers being punished.  So yeah,  i think that is enough to form a judgement,  the fact that I'm not Europe dwelling doesn't mean i can't speak on that,  as that is censorship. I will state my opinion,  you are free to disagree,  but insulting me and putting words in my mouth isn't a debate,  its personal attacking and character assassination.

[RickyMartini]

No,  I'm not from Europe

That was pretty clear to me. The thing is , you are way too invested into "issues" which aren't even near your scope. (Also regarding your whole rant about transgender and gay issues). I think you probably just really like debating online.

And no, there isn't any "censoring" towards reporters who write basically anything. Depending on which country, there are multiple big and small independent reporting agencies so it is pretty much impossible to cover up anything, so it isn't easy to just only push a certain narrative. What you are saying would be conspiracy.

The fact "immigrants"  have no background checks often

Do you work on the border? Do you have any idea how the different immigration policies look like in every single country and border that refugees have to cross? Why are you so sure of practically everything you're saying?

elevated sexual assault turning sweden into a "rape capital"

I've heard that one a hundred times. The short answer is that Sweden was the "rape capital" since forever, for the simple fact that abusive relationships which resulted in multiple rapes are counted individually, and Sweden is the only country in doing so. Instead of spouting ignorance, read up on it, it's really nothing new, and I have to say it's really shameful that you're using this "fact" to push your narrative against refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

and population feeling guilty for their attackerz being punished

What an incredibly subjective and bold statement. I don't feel guilty, so what now? This is only a question of representation. And I myself, being a very politically invested person in a european country, have never heard such an utter nonsense.

So yeah,  i think that is enough to form a judgement,  the fact that I'm not Europe dwelling doesn't mean i can't speak on that,  as that is censorship. I will state my opinion

I have no problem whatsoever with you speaking your opinion. What I just love is people like you who just feel the need to talk about any issue, and being absolutely confident about what they are saying even if it might not be a simple one.

Mostly, this has a kind of know-it-all vibe that I just can't stand.

How would you like it if I wrote paragraphs like this:

Secondly, relatively sure pro gun opinions there are censored on many respects especially in Texas, which is a factor. No, I'm not from the US, but I've read enough.

Seriously, if I wrote the above nonsense, I would be absolutely ashamed because there is NO way I'm not going to rustle some  texan jimmies by writing like I know it better then people who are in the vicinity.
Yes, I should speak my opinion about gun regulation matters even if I'm not from the US, but for christs sake, I shouldn't spout my opinion in a manner that makes me look like I'm a teenager.

[Mathenaut]

No,  I'm not from Europe,  but I've read enough. The fact "immigrants"  have no background checks often ,  elevated sexual assault turning sweden into a "rape capital" ,  court reluctance to deport rapists,  and population feeling guilty for their attackers being punished.

I think the fact that you are basing your understanding of Europe on sensationalist media says enough.

I don't agree with mumble on everything, but he's on point when highlighting certain hypocrisies concerning the LGBT community, at least in the US. The whole "it's okay when we do it" sentiment only empowers your critics. If you believe that something is wrong, then you don't make arbitrary exceptions.

[RickyMartini]

I think the fact that you are basing your understanding of Europe on sensationalist media says enough.

I was trying to find another way to describe what was wrong about mumble's opinions about Europe, but this one didn't come to my mind. It's definitely sensationalist. I think it's very sad that there are people who actually form their opinions based on this.

[mumblemumble]

What media outlet covers it even? Most media gets blasted for even pointing out a rapists country of origin. Most places that i hear stuff about are investigations,  personal accounts,  or other stuff. Mainstream media almost completely ignores it.

Only thing i can think of was the magazine depicting a woman being assaulted,  but AFTER  countless assaults were made.  We can argue it's not all Muslim people,  certainly,  but something is very very wrong with the immigration system,  I've even heard of 35 year old men getting labeled as youth,  and treated as minors because they in no way can verify information,  and people are extremely encouraged not to doubt them on what they say.

I can understand some flexibility,  but there's way too much. And those who are immigrants should be,  if violent or criminal,  deported immediately.

[KillTyrant]

This was an interesting read. I know this is in the off topic section but can you guys try to stay focused on a single issue. If you have a disagreement (even though i love to read these) i might suggest PMs. It cuts down on the needless banter from the bleachers. It was funny seeing this go from RW mechanics to the EU migrant crisis. Heck, i even saw a throw away texas gun joke haha. Point being, dont make these posts an oppurtunity to ad homenim. We all have our opinions and our sources. We all wont agree on every single issue. However, we can still learn from those we disagree with by asking the right questions.