As a long time player (Alpha 3 or so), I'm frustrated with gold, components.

Started by nuschler22, April 15, 2016, 04:31:09 PM

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Rahjital

Tynan isn't the kind of dev to add things because it's "realistic". Like Boston said, it's a mix of realistic and unrealistic, because that's simply not a big consideration in the design process. Components are designed to be a strategic resource that has to be managed carefully, and breakdowns are a constant drain to this strategic resource to keep it relevant even if you manage to keep raiders from ruining half your base. It's fun when it works, and frustrating when it doesn't, but it's just the first iteration and the issues can be corrected.

Boston

Quote from: AllenWL on April 16, 2016, 09:46:58 PM
Ship landing on the planet notwithstanding, if a ship has a generator strong enough to give that much power, can't they just build the generator on earth, and not the rest of the ship? I mean, if you can make one for the ship...


Also
Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PM

Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).

We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
I don't think 'realistic' should be a measuring stick for games. Realistically, speaking, you need more than just shoving wood in a furnace to produce electricity, eating nothing but meat will cause malnutrition. We shouldn't be getting out of orbit on a stick attached to a engine, colonists shouldn't mine, cut plants, build, and so on and so forth with their bare hands, and you'll need to peel corn before eating it, eating corn should leave the middle bit(whatever it's called), and rice is a lot more complicated to grow and harvest. It shouldn't even really grow on anything that's not wet enough(like gravel, or dirt). Also, people don't take a dozen pistol wounds to the chest and live, yet have the torso destroyed by 2, 3 hits from a club, no matter how well made. Leather needs to be cured, wool needs to be spun into threads, and why are we growing mushrooms for textiles? And I don't even know how you shoot the foot off someone hiding behind a sandbag, won't that be completely covered?


1) It isn't a furnace, it is explicitly labelled as a "fueled generator". Based upon the fuel, it is probably a wood-gas generator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas)
2) Not quite. Eating nothing but lean meat will cause malnutrition, yes, but eating organ meats, bone marrow and fat will cover almost all of your nutritional needs. Considering how there isn't masses of viscera left over whenever we slaughter animals in-game, we can probably assume the colonists eat that (it would be really wasteful if they didnt)
3) WHich is why I (and many other posters on this forum) have issues with the "build the ship, leave the planet" thing
4) Are you really assuming the colonists are running around smacking trees and rock faces with their bare hands? Considering how there are "axe-sounds" and "pickaxe-sounds", and one of the technologies in earlier alphas was a Pneumatic pick, we can again safely assume the colonists have, at the very least, hand tools. Why we don't see them is for the same reason the colonists don't have legs, hands or necks.
5) A necessary abstraction. Are you really bothered by the fact that there isn't masses of corn husks and corn cobs left over?
6) which is why I don't grow rice
7) WHich is why the Combat Realism mod is so popular
8) There are mods for this, believe me or not. I use them. Not to mention that tanning leather and turning cloth threads aren't particularly difficult. I've done both in real life using tools that I made myself.
9) Genetic engineering. The mushrooms were genetically engineered to produce fine silk fibers. I don't particularly like it, but ..... plausible, especially when compared to freaken boomrats.
10) depending on the caliber of the bullet, and where the gaps between the sandbags are, a bullet might pass right through. Or, you know, the person could leave their foot sticking out of cover by mistake. Shit happens

Boston

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 01:15:49 AM
Only certain kinds of food would need that kind of refrigeration. There are other kinds (cheeses, wines,nuts, certain durable vegetables) that become staples otherwise, along with drying meats and ample use of vinegar. Refrigeration is mostly a quality of life thing. Some things are easier with it, but no way would a colony struggle or die without it.

The problem is this sort of lazy approach to reality. Alot of people only take this half way. In 'reality', breakdowns are due to poor construction/flaws, negligence, or stress. More importantly, they're constructed so that failure occurs on the parts that are easier to replace, not on the core components that have you scrapping the entire mechanism when it fails.

In real life, resource scarcity is addressed by trade and colonies can compliment each other's needs. In real life, most large animals go into hibernation during the winter. In real life, you can predict the onset of extreme weather events. In real life, you can shield devices from solar radiation. In real life, you can do alot of things that would actually make the game alot easier.

So no, adding random awkward and convoluted obstacles is not 'realistic'. It's just goofy design.

That's really what is at the root of the problem. Not how realistic or unrealistic things are, but how completely inconsistent some of the design choices are. There are things completely fantastic in nature that are easy to accept within the context of the setting, then a bunch of awkward trip-ups because of 'realism' that is anything but.

1) Oh, I know that about certain types of food. I just prefer "root cellars" because they are relatively easy to make. In past Alphas, I would use the Mountain Temp mod in conjunction with other mods, like Food Preservation, to store dried meats and vegetables for long periods. I am actually eagerly awaiting both mods to update, so I can finally play a powerless colony

2) I was assuming that whenever a colonist repaired a broken-down machine, that they were replacing the "easy to replace" bits, not building the whole thing from new? Whenever I had my solar panels/windmill break down, I only saw them actually bring in new components?

Whenever I read "components", I almost automatically assume the term refers to "small gears, springs, pistons, wires, etc", not parts like windmill blades, frames, etc. The small bits that are necessary for functioning, but quite difficult to make without a dedicated facility. You aren't going to be making small. hard-tempered gears with tolerances below +/- 0.01 mm on a blacksmith table. Not without difficulty.

3) I thought most animals will leave the map during "winter", or when there isn't enough food for them? I play on Boreal Forests, and I know that my colonists have to get as much hunting in as possible early in the fall, because usually by the first snowfall, all the "large game" will be gone from the map, and all I see is rabbits and squirrels until spring.

4) Maybe some form of "isolation" for electrical devices could be locked behind research, although I don't think "suspend device in a cage made of foil" is really research-worthy.

5) And I think that those options should be added to the game, to add more "choice". I shouldn't be all-but forced to build generators and powered devices in order for my colony to survive.

DNK

Quote from: Boston on April 16, 2016, 05:11:44 PMA large part of the problem with "vanilla" Rimworld is that, without electricity (for refrigerators), you basically have no food preservation. A serious misstep, in my opinion. In "real life" (and with the mod "Mountain Temp", which I am eagerly awaiting an update for), you could dig down into the soil, build a "root cellar" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_cellar), and keep food refrigerated for almost all year round.

Essentially, parts of Rimworld are very realistic (components, machinery breaking down, disease, etc), and other parts, usually aspects of the game that build off the "realistic" parts (food preservation, temperature, etc), are not. So, you have realistic difficulty, and no realistic workarounds to that. Which is where many people are having issues.

Either the entire game needs to be more "realistic" (aka, machinery breaks down, and needs components, which require a great deal of skill and know-how to be able to make, but there are alternatives that do not require machinery) [which I would almost overwhelmingly prefer], or the entire game needs to be "less realistic" (machinery never breaks down unless attacked, components are not a thing, etc).

We can't have both. When we do, threads like these happen.
I sort of agree here. At the very least, Rimworld needs more non-component-based alternatives, pre-info age stuff. Deadfall traps are nice. Smoking meats would also be nice. Some crops decay slowly (corn and taters) so with proper management you can at least live off of those (in a normal biome) until you advance to refrigeration (though currently it's easy to get that started up early with any moderate RNG luck).

Pieces of the game are falling into place, but other pieces are missing, which as you say gives the game a very unbalanced feel. There's more difficulty than there should be over this, because of those missing pieces.

Also the tech levels of opponents should mirror your own. You shouldn't have to face off against mechanoids and space pirates when you can't even field turrets any firearms beyond a survival rifle. The RNG coding should be taking this into account in Cassandra/Phoebe.

On that note, the RNG should be taking your components stock levels, and nearby natural components, into account and providing more traders with them should your availability drop too low.

Panzer

Dont make light of traps vs mechanoids, the deadfall traps are amazing vs scythers. Up to 60 dmg when the head only has 30 hp, most of the time they just get 1shotted by them.

hoochy

I think the large gap of Alpha 12 and Alpha 13 has made a lot of Rimworld users realize that the mods they use are actually better than the core game. Alpha 12 with mods is so much better than Alpha 13 core it is not funny, at least for me.

I hadn't played the core game for so long that I was surprised there were so few power options, and that was just the start of it. Just the total lack of items in general, or ability to generate items which the world has ,is a significant problem. You are just reliant on traders for most things which seems weird, like the game is "Wait for trader"world instead of some survival on a planet simulation.

The Alpha 13 interface design is way behind Alpha 12 with mods. No colonist bar? I don't even know how people select each character normally, I struggle in Alpha 13, and even that colonist bar mod isn't the best it could be. No colonist manager? I barely use that mod but it gives you so many options to stop micromanaging everything. Crops are poorly done compared to mods. Storage is extremely, extremely, poorly done compared to mods. Quantum storage mod should be default as should the "deep storage" type mods , as they make the game less laggy too. The whole game is just poorly done compared to mods, it is strange to me.

nuschler22

I think this topic has devolved into something different than the purpose.

The topic is not about "realism vs fantasy." 

The topic is about what some view, including myself, as a new facet of the game which relies too heavily on luck.  Luck has always been a part of the game.   In my opinion, luck in strategy games should never ruin the experience.  What's the point of playing a game if your only chance of success has been strangled by what resources you're dealt or how often necessary traders stop by?

Luck should be a component by which, if you don't plan carefully and use strategy, you're more likely to fail.  But, as has been said before numerous times, this method of luck makes one rely solely on luck to advance throughout the game. 

If this hasn't happened to you, you've been lucky.


hoochy

Quote from: nuschler22 on April 17, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
I think this topic has devolved into something different than the purpose.

The topic is not about "realism vs fantasy." 

The topic is about what some view, including myself, as a new facet of the game which relies too heavily on luck.  Luck has always been a part of the game.   In my opinion, luck in strategy games should never ruin the experience.  What's the point of playing a game if your only chance of success has been strangled by what resources you're dealt or how often necessary traders stop by?

Luck should be a component by which, if you don't plan carefully and use strategy, you're more likely to fail.  But, as has been said before numerous times, this method of luck makes one rely solely on luck to advance throughout the game. 

If this hasn't happened to you, you've been lucky.

Well I created a suggestion thread which would fix this issue, though I doubt it will be implemented. It is really quite a simple thing to do.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=18987.0

Mathenaut

Quote from: Boston on April 17, 2016, 07:31:39 AM
2) I was assuming that whenever a colonist repaired a broken-down machine, that they were replacing the "easy to replace" bits, not building the whole thing from new? Whenever I had my solar panels/windmill break down, I only saw them actually bring in new components?

Whenever I read "components", I almost automatically assume the term refers to "small gears, springs, pistons, wires, etc", not parts like windmill blades, frames, etc. The small bits that are necessary for functioning, but quite difficult to make without a dedicated facility. You aren't going to be making small. hard-tempered gears with tolerances below +/- 0.01 mm on a blacksmith table. Not without difficulty.

That's the thing, though. The actual base technologies aren't that complex. You don't need tiny gears and sophisticated microchips to generate electricity or even make a solar panel. Those things allow you to make extremely efficient, small, conveniences of them certainly. When your cellphone breaks, it's usually because one of the major parts (case, battery, wiring, memory, etc) has failed under stress or poor design - not because one of the rare earth metals inside of it has disintegrated and you need to mine out new ones.

Quote3) I thought most animals will leave the map during "winter", or when there isn't enough food for them? I play on Boreal Forests, and I know that my colonists have to get as much hunting in as possible early in the fall, because usually by the first snowfall, all the "large game" will be gone from the map, and all I see is rabbits and squirrels until spring.

Even domesticated animals of certain types will undergo hibernation periods. There is no reason for my muffalo to be consuming like it's spring during the dead of winter when they aren't even moving around for much.


Quote4) Maybe some form of "isolation" for electrical devices could be locked behind research, although I don't think "suspend device in a cage made of foil" is really research-worthy.

5) And I think that those options should be added to the game, to add more "choice". I shouldn't be all-but forced to build generators and powered devices in order for my colony to survive.

The theme that Tynan is aiming for isn't something easy to balance. Dystopian frontier sci-fi is a niche theme. Even in games developed around this theme, the trend is always toward how the rare hypertech makes all the difference in the world - if you can get it. There are also opposing cases, where scores of low-end natives outwit people with better technology. Hell, that's happening all across the world right now (though, let's not get too political).

Rimworld has open-ended gameplay and Tynan likes to encourage certain gameplay types while discouraging others. The problem is that there isn't a balance to this. Technology should make a big difference, but be 'difficult to get'.

In the sense that every 'tier' (we essentially have that now: before you can use machinist table, after machinist table but before multi-analyzer, and after-analyzer) needs to be fully rounded and sustainable to a degree (low tech isn't really suitable to extreme environments).

There is also the issue that 'building a colony' and 'trying to get off this rock' are both directions that drive completely different approaches to gameplay. What may be an obstacle/annoyance to one may not be so much to the other.

Tynan also doens't want things so clearly defined that Rimworld begins to follow the template for some random rts. He adds a number of little obstacles (like needs, joy, mood) that complicate efficiency, but imo they are done well enough within the flavor of the game that they mostly (I still think joy is a little heavily done) add to the character of the game.

Components were meant to slow progress in general down, along with the longer time scale, to overall slow the pace of the game. There needs to be more ways to expand laterally (expand around the tier you're presently on) without expanding upward (progressing to a new tier). So people can build larger settlements at low-tech without the game registering it as 'Time to send a power-armor army'.

RedSchuhart

I think that to balance components there must be low-tech ways to do things: fueled stoves, cellars, traps, torches, so you could get by with it.
These solutions will be less effective, but you will have ways to avoid situations in which all your food spoils due to faulty generator and lack of components. And you will have a choice between "that shiny thingy that will make my life easier and safer but will need maintenance" and "this stone crap that is absolutely inferior but will work forever".
As of A13 it is partially introduced, but it's not enough to balance component demand. You still need coolers to keep food from spoiling, lamps to make your colonists not go insane, hydroponics to survive in harsh conditions and so on, and so forth and some of these are critical to survival so you have to use components and on some maps you get rekt because there is no steel or components left and traders are not coming any time soon.
If low-tech stuff will be fully introduced it will also keep balance because you still will be facing a choice: either you fight centipedes with sticks, stones and suicidal rushes or you find ways to get components to maintain your hi-tech colony.

Generally I think that components are good and challenging, but for now they are rather unbalanced with no workarounds.

Mathenaut

The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.

RedSchuhart

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 06:09:51 PM
The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.
You can make charcoal from wood pretty easily. Look up channel "Primitive technology" on Youtube, there's a video showing the process. To manage a low-tech colony you'll basically need stoves to make food and warm living areas, a smithy to make tools/weapons/armor, stonecutting workshop and some fields to grow crops. Basic resources needed to make it possible are wood, stone and some metal. Wood used as building material, basic fuel and to make charcoal, charcoal to make basic metal stuff, even to make iron tools, though the process is very time consuming and ineffective, and stone to make stoves and workshops.
IMO that should cover all the basic needs: shelter, food and safety. At least for some time before colony can maintain high-tech machinery.

Boston

Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 17, 2016, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 17, 2016, 06:09:51 PM
The problem there is that it will require more resources. You'll need more than just wood as a resource to burn for fuel if you want to manage a fully low-tech colony. Not exactly an option without coal or something similar. Something you can't directly build with, but can use as a resource.
You can make charcoal from wood pretty easily. Look up channel "Primitive technology" on Youtube, there's a video showing the process. To manage a low-tech colony you'll basically need stoves to make food and warm living areas, a smithy to make tools/weapons/armor, stonecutting workshop and some fields to grow crops. Basic resources needed to make it possible are wood, stone and some metal. Wood used as building material, basic fuel and to make charcoal, charcoal to make basic metal stuff, even to make iron tools, though the process is very time consuming and ineffective, and stone to make stoves and workshops.
IMO that should cover all the basic needs: shelter, food and safety. At least for some time before colony can maintain high-tech machinery.

Pretty much. And you wouldn't need to run the smithy all the time, either, so you won't actually need all that much charcoal.

Mathenaut

So it would be like if the current fuel smithy worked more efficiently, burning when it was used instead of always.

hoochy

Quote from: RedSchuhart on April 17, 2016, 06:01:20 PM
I think that to balance components there must be low-tech ways to do things: fueled stoves, cellars, traps, torches, so you could get by with it.
These solutions will be less effective, but you will have ways to avoid situations in which all your food spoils due to faulty generator and lack of components. And you will have a choice between "that shiny thingy that will make my life easier and safer but will need maintenance" and "this stone crap that is absolutely inferior but will work forever".
As of A13 it is partially introduced, but it's not enough to balance component demand. You still need coolers to keep food from spoiling, lamps to make your colonists not go insane, hydroponics to survive in harsh conditions and so on, and so forth and some of these are critical to survival so you have to use components and on some maps you get rekt because there is no steel or components left and traders are not coming any time soon.
If low-tech stuff will be fully introduced it will also keep balance because you still will be facing a choice: either you fight centipedes with sticks, stones and suicidal rushes or you find ways to get components to maintain your hi-tech colony.

Generally I think that components are good and challenging, but for now they are rather unbalanced with no workarounds.

It actually makes sense for nearly everything in the game to be able to be done at the start, just slow and poorly. Research should open up access to "better" stuff, not doing actual basic stuff. There are easy analogs for nearly everything in the game that can be done by hunter and gatherers if they had the information. Root cellars = refridgeration.

The way I see it, and the fun of Rimworld, is that we are landing, nearly raw on a new planet, we have modern information but our tools suck. So we find better and better ways to make the tools by building better and better machines. Research doesn't really fit well into this mindset. In a way, the pawns themselves should be "knowledge banks", and can pass that on to your other colonists, instead of there being research you click, though I know research as a game mechanic is popular. And maybe you can buy "books" to educate colonists too, either way I think it is more realistic that way and adds more flavor to finding that really smart and knowledgeable character who can teach others his knowledge. Adds more to a colonist death too, not only his skills matter but his knowledge and back story. Balances older characters who may be frail and useless in a physical sense but they actually know "stuff".

Coal and many other resources should be in the game too imo.