Is something wrong with shooting?

Started by nuschler22, April 18, 2016, 03:34:59 PM

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DeMatt

I think part of the reason we expect more out of our snipers is we don't realize just how penalizing that shooter-based range penalty is.

I have a sniper with 14 skill, with no bionics or health penalties.  That, combined, gives him a 99.10% per-square accuracy before curving.  The curving process reduces accuracy for high skill and increases it for low skill (a 0-skill brawler, with 50% accuracy, gets boosted way up to 80.26%), so post-curve my sniper gets 97.55%.  Which sounds impressive, until you realize that that's PER-SQUARE.  My sniper tries to engage from the very limit of his weapon (45 squares), so that becomes (97.55%)^45 = approximately 33%.

Then you multiply by the weapon's accuracy, target size, darkness, cover...

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:13:16 AM
Without trigger happy, would that make the shot 6% or 53%?
I'd guess 6%.  But it would depend on whether the Trigger-happy penalty was applied pre- or post-curve.

Aristocat

I think bigger problem is game doesn't consider movement or move speed as factor, they literally miss wall, table... and how in the hell do you miss completely static centipede that's about 10 times bigger than human, or granny with bad back.

Also post process seems not working as intended, a pawn with 1-melee skill supposed to be grant about 10% accuracy, but then process kicks in and he has 70%; this discourages improving offensive skills beyond 5 in my opinion.

mumblemumble

I think its safe to say,  if it is applied pre curve.... Yeah.

I also agree,  a pawns "moving"  stat should enhance the Dodge chance,  as well as actually moving (particularly moving sideways from the shooter) and completely Immobile objects (downed, walls turrets?)  should get a bit of a to hit buff. 
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

Mathenaut

I think that the metric for shooting needs to be recalibrated.

There needs to be a baseline for a trained shooter firing at optimal range, then modifiers should scale from there. This present bottom-up approach is a little too random and inconsistent, I think.

b0rsuk

Something is really weird. I had 4 people shoot a centipede - with LMG, Charge Rifle, Survival Rifle, and Sniper Rifle. They had between 5 and 10 Shooting skill. The firefight looked like something from  "The A Team". Even the centipede hardly ever hit my shield-wearing decoy, and he was often in the open, not even in cover, and within pistol range.

Tynan, I think you should have some unit/regression tests for this.

erdrik

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:02:35 AM
This is pretty X-Com levels of ridiculous.

* Image of shooting skill and current shot chance *

Thats not all the info tho.
What is Potts' health tab like?
Is he missing limbs or an eye?

b0rsuk

Try fighting a centipede with a small number of turrets. You'll see the number of improvised turret hits VASTLY outnumber the hits of your colonist. Whatever broke, it doesn't affect improvised turrets.

Tynan

Quote from: b0rsuk on April 21, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
Try fighting a centipede with a small number of turrets. You'll see the number of improvised turret hits VASTLY outnumber the hits of your colonist. Whatever broke, it doesn't affect improvised turrets.

Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.

FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

erdrik

Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.
...
*falls to knees, fists and face to sky* NOouuuuuuuuu... me turrets!
(j/k)
Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
...
FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.
Yay! Can't wait to see it.  ;D

Barley

Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
FYI I've done a deep rework of all the accuracy code so it should be a lot more tightly-designed and a bit less buggy next time.

Which means the raiders are gunna be better shots from Alpha 14 onward. On the one hand "Yay! my colonists' firing skills will make sense!" On the other "Crap, the raiders actually have a chance to hit me!"

Mathenaut

Quote from: Tynan on April 21, 2016, 02:39:25 PM
Turrets have always had the equivalent of very high shooting skills - though I should probably change that.

If you really don't want us using turrets that bad, you can just remove them you know :P

mbond

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 18, 2016, 03:43:20 PM
AI also likes to make your colonists hunt at maximum range (least accuracy), so you may want to move them closer manually.

how do you move them closer manually?

makapse


Mathenaut

Quote from: erdrik on April 21, 2016, 11:51:52 AM
Quote from: Mathenaut on April 20, 2016, 04:02:35 AM
This is pretty X-Com levels of ridiculous.

* Image of shooting skill and current shot chance *

Thats not all the info tho.
What is Potts' health tab like?
Is he missing limbs or an eye?

Potts is perfectly healthy in that screenshot.

Quote from: makapse on April 22, 2016, 10:54:59 AM
draft and then manually hunt

Essentially. You want to do this anyways because firing at max range leads to all sorts of accidents at present.