Tone down insect hives. Give the player more time to respond.

[b0rsuk]

FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.

Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.

Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.

Yes, bugs are melee specialists. Would you try beating them at their own game, when they outnumber your competent melee fighters and with the generous stunlock rules promoting ganging up ? It's like going toe to toe with a melee pirate raid. Would you risk your trained hauling dogs just to beat the bugs ? Melee is something that works in the midgame at best, because without an armour vest, good jacket and a helmet you're going to lose limbs and organs left and right. And bugs deal cutting damage, not blunt damage.

And going melee encourages going all-in. Shooters behind melee works on paper, but you're going to hit your own colonists.

The most effective tactic I've found is hit&run with handgrenades. Two hives spawned in one of my bedrooms. It was too small to have much buffer space, so David still lost a finger. Handgrenades are easy to hit and deal enough damage to make bugs notice. And when they start digging out of their enclosure is the perfect time for jumping in with a grenade primed.

I did notice this, my guy with a greatsword did have more success than my best shooter. I mostly use gun due to the much larger number of melee enemies than good shooters and i find that if my guys have guns they have a much better chance of escaping injury free. But i have to agree that my troops in my underground base have a much harder time of it as opposed to melee troops, but id still think that my laser rifle troops should stand some kind of chance against bugs

Greatsword.. laser rifle... Is Tynan supposed to balance his game against weapons only existing in mods ?

[AllenWL]

FYI melee is significantly more effective than guns at close range.

Or, melee line with gun shooters behind, at least.

Everyone still seems focused on guns, but this is how the game is balanced. It just seems like the community hasn't realize it yet.

Yes, bugs are melee specialists. Would you try beating them at their own game, when they outnumber your competent melee fighters and with the generous stunlock rules promoting ganging up ? It's like going toe to toe with a melee pirate raid. Would you risk your trained hauling dogs just to beat the bugs ? Melee is something that works in the midgame at best, because without an armour vest, good jacket and a helmet you're going to lose limbs and organs left and right. And bugs deal cutting damage, not blunt damage.

And going melee encourages going all-in. Shooters behind melee works on paper, but you're going to hit your own colonists.

The most effective tactic I've found is hit&run with handgrenades. Two hives spawned in one of my bedrooms. It was too small to have much buffer space, so David still lost a finger. Handgrenades are easy to hit and deal enough damage to make bugs notice. And when they start digging out of their enclosure is the perfect time for jumping in with a grenade primed.

I did notice this, my guy with a greatsword did have more success than my best shooter. I mostly use gun due to the much larger number of melee enemies than good shooters and i find that if my guys have guns they have a much better chance of escaping injury free. But i have to agree that my troops in my underground base have a much harder time of it as opposed to melee troops, but id still think that my laser rifle troops should stand some kind of chance against bugs

Greatsword.. laser rifle... Is Tynan supposed to balance his game against weapons only existing in mods ?

I think he means longsword and charge rifle. I think.

Also, why use dogs when you have bears, wargs, and rhinos?
And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.
Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.

[b0rsuk]

Also, why use dogs when you have bears, wargs, and rhinos?

I do ?

Dogs are much more plentiful, wargs have something like 75% wildness, good luck taming them. If you can afford buying them in numbers, then generally you can afford anything, like burning a wing of your colony just to get rid of bugs. I'm in boreal forest, I had to take out bugs without animal support.

And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.

"I've jumped over a power line once. Therefore it's possible and a good idea."

Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.

A hauling dog is harder to replace than a colonist, and valuable because all large dogs can haul but not all colonists can.

In my previous game A13 an early game injury completely crippled Valentin the sheriff. He was a sheriff, and an eye scar meant he never hit anything anymore, even once his skill reached 20. Sonia got an eye poked out, too. Why would I get more colonists who can't fight ? Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill. NO bionic eyes were sold until my ship launched.

In my current game I attempted meleeing a sniper with 0 skill. Several meters from the sniper he shot my colonist's leg off. Peg leg time, and he was a promising melee fighter.

David lost a finger and a jaw, sonia a kidney. I got lucky and will replace all except jaw. No one sells jaws.

Some injuries are annoying, some outright crippling. Losing just one toe causes 10% movement speed loss.

Rimworld went overboard with limb loss, and it has a good chance to totally cripple a colonist. I'm not playing russian roulette with my colonists.

[AllenWL]

And I've gone toe to toe with a melee pirate raid using melee and won once.

"I've jumped over a power line once. Therefore it's possible and a good idea."

I also barely took any damage, didn't take any permanent damage, took minimal structural damage, and didn't lose any animals.
It's a lot safer and viable than jumping over power lines.
While I do get your point(which I believe is something among the lines of'just because you managed it once, doesn't mean you can do it again, or regularly', right?), I have done it regularly, and I have managed it quite a few times each with minimum casualties.

Anyways, dogs can be replaced, people can get new limbs. It'll take time, sure, but it's not a colony-ending thing. Personally, I think people focus way too much on getting every colonist through the entire game without so much as a single scratch.

A hauling dog is harder to replace than a colonist, and valuable because all large dogs can haul but not all colonists can.

In my previous game A13 an early game injury completely crippled Valentin the sheriff. He was a sheriff, and an eye scar meant he never hit anything anymore, even once his skill reached 20. Sonia got an eye poked out, too. Why would I get more colonists who can't fight ? Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill. NO bionic eyes were sold until my ship launched.

Maybe we play differently, totally possible, but I never had a shortage of haulers, even without dogs. Sure, not every colonist can haul, but one or two who can haul dedicated to hauling can get quite a lot done.

From my experience, eye injuries are very rare. Also, I had a colonist with a eye scar who didn't have 20 skill, and still had passable accuracy. While the eye could be to blame, it could also have been poor weapon choice. Also, missing eyes don't seem to be that bad when going melee. And again, if you don't want them, you could get a new colonist with some effort. You don't need eyes to haul or clean either, and I'm almost sure it doesn't effect building or cooking. Or wardening for that matter.

In my current game I attempted meleeing a sniper with 0 skill. Several meters from the sniper he shot my colonist's leg off. Peg leg time, and he was a promising melee fighter.

You're approaching a person armed with a gun from several meters. That's never a  good idea, and promising melee fighter does not mean 'dodges bullets like a pro'.
Also, note that a sniper rifle is actually more accurate from long range, so 'several meters from the sniper' actually mean less than 'got hit right in front of the sniper'
You could have waited till he was closer to attack, or moved from cover to cover(trees, stone chuncks), only moving right after he fired to not get fired at when out of cover.
You could also have gotten persona shield, a semi-common drop for pirate raiders.
Both valid ways of getting to that sniper without getting hurt.

Also, just how often do you think a sniper with 0 skill will be able to shoot off someone's leg? To put it your way,
"I threw a wet sponge from a speeding bike and hit the bull's eye while blindfolded, so it's possible, and a common occurrence"

Some injuries are annoying, some outright crippling. Losing just one toe causes 10% movement speed loss.

Rimworld went overboard with limb loss, and it has a good chance to totally cripple a colonist. I'm not playing russian roulette with my colonists.

This is a matter of opinion.
Loosing one toe gives -10% on movement, but you still have the other 90% It's really not that bad. A pawn moves at around 4.32 tiles per second. A missing toe puts you at about 3.888, a 0.432 tile per second difference. Unless you're running from a pack of hungry muffalo, its not that big of a loss.

Organs can be gotten from prisoners, and you usually get at least one per raid.

Also, you are just as likely to have a colonist lose a lung in a firefight as you are when you send him out to knife the enemy. In fact, knifing can give less injury, because when it's a gun vs gun, you have to trade shots. However, a melee unit doesn't have to engage till he's right up close. With proper use of terrain, it's very possible.

Yes, rimworld could have some better combat mechanics. Yes, a single bullet to the brain, or a high-caliber to the limb can rip it off, but it's really not that common. At least for me anyways.
A colonist losing a limb happens once in a blue moon. A sniper round to the leg will instantly down while not removing the limb, so the colonist doesn't get more damage anyhow.
It takes multiple hits to the arm to take out out, and really, there are two arms, two other legs, a very big torso, and dozens of other parts. Limb loss is possible, but not really that common.

Also, there are other things that factor in as well.
For example, what kind of clothes and armor do you give your colonists?
Clothes work as armor too, and a good sturdy pair of pants and shirt, with a nice jacket can protect your colonists from limb-loss, as can use of cover, not just sandbags, things like walls, trees, stone chunks, even bushes and tables.

Everyone needs to pull his weight in a colony, you either work, haul, or kill.

And really, you can find a job for practically anyone(I mean, a peg-legged, one-armed man with a bullet in his brain can't do anything, but other then these extreme cases), I've had people who where frail with bad back, people without arms, people with peg legs, people who can't fight, people who would barely do anything and more in my colony, and they all pulled their weight, all of them.
Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.

[b0rsuk]

From my experience, eye injuries are very rare. Also, I had a colonist with a eye scar who didn't have 20 skill, and still had passable accuracy. While the eye could be to blame, it could also have been poor weapon choice.

I've tried all weapons, including a survival rifle. No difference. It would perhaps make sense to make him a minigunner, but I already had two triggerhappy colonists, so why bother ?

Also, missing eyes don't seem to be that bad when going melee. And again, if you don't want them, you could get a new colonist with some effort. You don't need eyes to haul or clean either, and I'm almost sure it doesn't effect building or cooking. Or wardening for that matter.

Both colonists who lost their eyes were unable to haul or clean. And sheriffs can pretty much only fight, so when he lost an eye it WAS crippling for him, it disabled the only thing he could do for the colony.

You could have waited till he was closer to attack,

No. Snipers don't get closer on their own. And I really needed a sniper rifle because there was a poison ship.

or moved from cover to cover(trees, stone chuncks), only moving right after he fired to not get fired at when out of cover.

No, because he was chased by two guys with handgrenades. Besides, hiding between every shot means the 0 Shooting sniper would get more attempts to hit.

You could also have gotten persona shield, a semi-common drop for pirate raiders.

I got my first personal shields 2 raids later, there were no trade ships and I was poor anyway.

Both valid ways of getting to that sniper without getting hurt.

Except when none is available to you, and situation is so dire that sending someone to beat a sniper and distract grenadiers from turrets and shooters in cover is the better plan.

Also, just how often do you think a sniper with 0 skill will be able to shoot off someone's leg? To put it your way,
"I threw a wet sponge from a speeding bike and hit the bull's eye while blindfolded, so it's possible, and a common occurrence"

Even pirates outnumber your colonists, so yes, they get more dices to roll than you. They get more attempts, and raiders don't get pawns incapable of violence, while I have three in that colony (and I rejected two colonists - one was 75 year old, another 90+), three colonists with Shooting around 10, one melee fighter (the guy with a bionic in place of the shot off leg) in a 8 person colony. When capable fighters are so scarce you absolutely can't afford fighting battles of attrition!

Also, you are just as likely to have a colonist lose a lung in a firefight as you are when you send him out to knife the enemy.

And here we arrive at the core of the issue - raiders, even pirates, invariably outnumber your colonists. Player tactics in Rimworld evolved to don't get shot at all. Hence the large popularity of survival rifles, sniper rifles, assault rifles. I use a few turrets in front (2-4) to draw enemy fire, often with a shielded colonist repairing them behind sandbags. The primary tactic of most people is to outrange. You can't have the advantage in numbers, so you must rely on quality.

For melee to be effective you need armor vest, helmet, and apparel better than cloth. Personal Shield is in my opinion optional, but armor greatly increases the chance of not getting crippled and not losing a melee fight to the shooter you tied up in melee. These things are generally available from midgame onwards, and at that point you can stock up on effective long range weaponry (survival, assault, sniper rifles for everyone) plus a few turrets.

There is no evidence that short ranged weapons are better for anything. Notice there are very few people in these forums discussing PDW, shotguns, heavy SMG, shortbows, pilas. Raiders are bad at using cover, so longer range simply means more time to shoot at raiders, and not get hit in return. LMG is used, but even that weapon got a buff (5 rounds -> 6 rounds) a few alphas ago, and Charge Rifle got an accuracy buff in A12.

In fact, knifing can give less injury, because when it's a gun vs gun, you have to trade shots. However, a melee unit doesn't have to engage till he's right up close. With proper use of terrain, it's very possible.

Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.

My previous colony had 1 hauler when it was size 5. People who can't haul often are that way because Dumb Labor is disabled, so they can't clean either. They're not rare at all. I don't reroll my starting colonists at all and play in Permadeath (my 2nd game).

[AllenWL]

I meant it's quality and durability, but...
A higher quality weapon is more accurate, and different weapons are more accurate at different ranged. For example, a survival and sniper rifle have good accuracy at mid/long ranges, but at short or touch range, they have very poor accuracy. Shotguns and pistols on the other hand, are reversed, with good accuracy at short/touch range and bad accuracy at mid/long range

Snipers get closer if there are no targets. What I meant was hide somewhere where he can't hit you, which would make him come closer. Of course, now that I know you had turrets, I realize this would have meant giving up your turrets and might not have been an attractive proposal. I don't use turrets, so I forgot about that.

And yes, grenadiers do make it much more tricky. However, unless it's a sapper raid, they tend to be rare... for me anyways.
Well, I will admit you had little choice at that time... but a two grenadiers backed by a sniper. Like I said, what are the chances of that?

You can get leather clothes fairly quick. I'm usually churning out leather clothes of normal or better quality before the first year is over.

And yes, by the time you get armor vests, you can make guns. Still doesn't mean melee is neglectable.

'No evidence that short ranged weapons are better for anything'. Actually, they are, amazingly, better at short range. Lower damage, maybe, but higher accuracy and much faster fire-rate makes them much better up-close.
In PDW range, a PDW will beat a sniper rifle nearly every time. Real close, like a few tiles away, a PDW will *wreck* a sniper rifle.

In my opinion, the only problem with these weapons is that they're vulnerable to melee and that it's hard to get close. Both can be remedied. I personally never use sniper rifles. I get by just fine.

Short bows and Pilas, I agree, are useless though. No way around that really...

Anyways, short-range weapons and melee are very rarely discussed, true, but that doesn't make them useless.

I personally find people with even shooting 5 is capable enough when used right. It takes a bit of managing, some luring, but it works fine.

Also, yes you can't fight a battle of attrition, the enemy has endless forces after all. But really, you don't fight a 'battle' of attrition unless it's a siege, and really, colonists don't take much to heal.

My colonists have gotten shot, bruised, and stabbed multiple times. They've got infected, and bled enough blood to fill a pool. And you know? A bed, some herbal medicen, and any doctor is enough to get them back on their feet, usually in a day or two, without permanent injuries.

For me, 1 hauler is enough with 5 people, and usually just have one hauler at that point.

[SuperCaffeineDude]

I think the hive insects are slightly too hardcore, we already have bullet sponge robots to face, I would prefer more insects, same or better dps, with much less health, just to make it more visceral than slugging it out for hours. They spawn in your base, in tight corridors that favor melee, they don't need too many more advantages.

I really like the idea of them popping out of nowhere to engage people, they're there to surprise you, not to be predicted, but I defiantly feel some accommodation is needed to make up for that advantage so that getting rid of them is less tedious, that could involve lowering HP or providing a weakness like EMP to mechtoids.

The melee... eh it might be strong, but without trainable defense/dodge attributes you wear down your melee fighters too quickly against melee focused opposition, as it stands you cannot stack the odds in your favor heavily enough against fellow melee troops, especially given retreat from melee engagement is nigh on impossible without heavily micromanaged door meta, I'm not suggesting it's black and white, but in my opinion melee needs some love if it's to be utilized.

[b0rsuk]

Fun fact: hives can spawn megaspiders more than 15 hours BEFORE the reproduction counter goes down! Second infestation caused my colonists to lose pet hare and 2 fingers (my sniper lost a finger). I was determined to use my unwounded guys to finish off the hive, including my best melee guy. While he was slicing a badly damaged hive, a megaspider popped up from nowhere ! And to top it off, my brave melee fighter later went berserk in hospital, cutting an ear from a fellow colonist and causing many injuries in two. He also took damage being taken down, including an eye scar. Melee fighters are can be worse than useless. No, he's NOT getting that bionic eye I have in stockpile.

I need to build this colony like a damn bunker. Bulkhead doors everywhere from now on!!! And it will probably take a month of cleaning. Bugblood is the most awful kind of dirt.

They've not finished licking their wounds, but they're throwing a party. That's the spirit.
No one is getting beer because I have no cook above skill 2.

[Goldenpotatoes]

I died to the first hive I ever encountered because I didn't expect it.

Haven't had an issue since seeing how I take proper preparation when building anything under a mountain (more choke points, snare traps, occasional turret ready to be toggled). It really isn't that hard to counter if you bother building against.

Aka:git gud

[Zombra]

My first hive wiped out my colony.  I tried charging my guys in and got slaughtered.  Melee is superior my ass.  b0rsuk is right - why fight bugs on terms most favorable to them?

My second hive went very differently.  First time out, I didn't realize the bugs were quite happy to sit in their little hive, at least for a while.  This time I let the bugs hang out congratulating themselves while I set up an exterior rifle ambush, then opened the door and carefully drew them out one or two at a time.  Whoever had aggro would run in circles, while everyone else stood back and blasted away.  "Bait" duty traded off when a bug started chasing someone else.  No casualties, minimal injuries, megaspider stew and royal jelly for dinner with plenty of leftovers for breakfast.

In general, I find melee next to worthless.  Sneaking up on a ranged opponent is damn near impossible without getting your tits shot off, and blowing a charging melee enemy to pieces with gunfire is far preferable even to slugging it out and winning ... but ending up in the hospital.  I'll admit it's fun to play with cover and line of sight to try to get close with melee, but only when the enemy is weak enough to toy with.  In any serious fight, my non-gun-compliant colonists are only there to draw fire so my shooters can kill the enemy unmolested.  I've even taken to giving pistols to my Shooting 0 / Melee 8+ guys so they'll be somewhat useful.

And you know, I am fine with all this.  I don't think a game in this setting needs to have great balance between melee and guns.  Think about Firefly for a minute - nobody carried swords around as their basic means of defense, and that's not a problem or "imbalanced".  If I were to change RimWorld, I wouldn't change it so melee characters were harder to hit or immune to bullets - I would change the ratio of hitters to shooters so that melee specialists were rare, because that makes so much more sense in the setting.  There shouldn't be martial artists hanging around on every street corner.  A colony with 5 gunmen and 5 swordsmen is silly - 8 gunmen supported by a couple of brawlers seems much more appropriate.

I admit I'm new to the game ... I hope I'll learn to leverage melee better later.  For now, whenever a brawler joins up, I think, "I hope he can cook."

[koisama]

I made a video about dealing with bugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFygyGzkk1U

Worst infestation you can ever get (more than 30 hives at once). Zero casualties, and my colonists only lost a couple of noses and a pinky. And a couple of hauling huskies, but they breed like rabbits anyway.

[AllenWL]

Fun fact: hives can spawn megaspiders more than 15 hours BEFORE the reproduction counter goes down!

Reproduction counter is simply the time left till a new hive spawns, and has nothing to do with insect spawns, which is about twice as common.
But having a insect spawn counter as well would be nice.

[Nasikabatrachus]

I made a video about dealing with bugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFygyGzkk1U

Worst infestation you can ever get (more than 30 hives at once). Zero casualties, and my colonists only lost a couple of noses and a pinky. And a couple of hauling huskies, but they breed like rabbits anyway.

That's pretty cool, but I've never been in such a good position to be able to deal with bugs. My latest colony rather mercifully got an infestation at the bottom of the map, away from the colony itself, but I still find it difficult to deal with. My turrets do yield plenty of bugmeat to eat, though.

[Britnoth]

Aka:git gud

Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?

Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.

[Goldenpotatoes]

Aka:git gud

Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?

Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.

Don't build your colonist's bedrooms under a mountain?