Tone down insect hives. Give the player more time to respond.

Started by Zanfib, April 20, 2016, 04:46:16 AM

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Vaporisor

Quote from: Britnoth on April 30, 2016, 05:21:03 PM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 29, 2016, 02:14:16 PM
Aka:git gud

Please explain how you deal with 10+ ants teleporting into a bedroom while someone is sleeping and killing them before they can reach the door?

Without metagame cheese/bug exploits.

Ditto.  I had it show up dead center of my prison when I had two wardens in there.  One was right by the door and got out, the other was down and arm and needing rescue in like half a second.

Countering is something else.  But pretending that it doesn't cost is kinda funny.  Same with if a person metagame plays to mine out every mountain to beat the odds.  That is endgame style tactics.  I usually can have a ship build and gone before that point.

The followup point about not building bedrooms under mountains, well sometimes that is a tactical choice.  Bugs exist to keep mountains from being a safespot.  Having bedrooms outside hold just as many risk potentials.
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Mathenaut

Quote from: AllenWL on April 29, 2016, 07:39:13 AM
Even if it was just menial jobs and small labor, every little bit counts, and you'd be surprised at how much those little things can be worth.

You know someone lucked out with RNG when they come out on top in melee with no damage AND don't have any disabled labor backgrounds in their group.

Britnoth

Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 05:26:17 PM

Haven't had an issue since seeing how I take proper preparation when building anything under a mountain

.....

Don't build your colonist's bedrooms under a mountain?

Your post contained the condition of being under the mountain. Asserting just

Quoteproper preparation

Is enough to deal with ants safely. Then you give advice directly opposite of the previous conditions you based your comment on.

Inconsistency detected.   :P

Goldenpotatoes

Proper preparation involves planning your base properly. The bugs that pop out of the ground could also be the group of raiders drop-podding in through the roof. You take the risk of a bug popping out from under your colonist's beds when you insist on building their room/barracks under a mountain.

Bugs are a decent method of nerfing mountain turtling, but it doesn't disallow it completely. Build long hallways to kite them, use door peaking to your advantage. Outrange them. It really isn't that difficult to deal with them if you just play SMART.

I had bugs pop out when my colony couple were mid-shag. They didn't die luckily enough, and I had the sight to go "well, maybe I shouldn't be building the area where my colonists are the most vulnerable in the same area that bugs can dig out the floor."

tl;dr: gud, u should git

Vaporisor

There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs.  The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial.  If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason.  Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.

The sign of a poor player is one who thinks they are better than the rest.  My colonies usually are inpenetrable and make use of layout and manual guidance of pawns to the point now where it takes one hell of a lucky hit to cause a permanent injury, let alone death.  Shoot, I don't even build turrets til mid to late game usually now.  Doesn't change the fact that the bugs are an instant engagement.  The only way to avoid it is never go underground, or heavily metagame to keep it in control.  People like myself prefer to not metagame or exploit the programming.
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Goldenpotatoes

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs.  The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial. 

Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
The sign of a poor player is one who thinks they are better than the rest.

I dont think 'im better' than the rest, I'm just stating the facts. If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
The only way to avoid it is never go underground, or heavily metagame to keep it in control.  People like myself prefer to not metagame or exploit the programming.

You just stated yourself earlier that you take advantage of manual guidance and other kinks in pawn pathfinding. It's not exactly your fault because how simplistic the AI can be when it comes to attacking, but almost everyone abuses it to some extent (making obvious paths with traps when it'd be 10x easier to break down a single wall into the actual colony for radiers.) I also fail to see how planning proper bases and understand what happens when you play the game is 'metagaming'. Yes, I will just not build my colonies around the fact it could be sieged, blown into via sappers, dropped in directly by things as tanky as mechanoids, ect. I wouldn't get very far into my colonies if I didn't 'metagame', as you said.

tl;dr: git gud screblerd

Jorlem

Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs.  The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial. 

Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.

However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.

Goldenpotatoes

Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
There is a huge difference between raiders landing right on top and instabugs.  The drop pod raiders take several seconds to come out vs bugs which can instakill your best character while doing something menial. 

Uh, no? Bugs aren't instant. Infact, they have a LONGER deploy time than drop-pod raiders. In the test build, they were instant. That was changed.

However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.

Now that probably needs addressed. I don't really notice this stuff since I pause at the sound of any alarm in-game, but that's probably an oversight.

Vaporisor

Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM

However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.

And spread, that is what got me the first time.  Got it paused right before they showed. Moved guys to the hives, but then there was spawn opposite side of the map as well that it didnt goto.  Until I got the colonist need treatment, was no clue of bugs or hive.  So now every infestation, gotta scroll whole map.
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Zombra

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
Bugs [...] can instakill your best character while doing something menial.  If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason.  Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.

Sorry to butt in, but what you're describing isn't a failure on the game's part; on the contrary, it sounds like an awesome scene from a sci-fi movie.  Kickass dudebro soldier deep inside the base, thinks he's safe and relaxes, sets down his gun, pulls off his pants, and suddenly the metallic shrieks of alien predators are all around him and the lights go out.  Now the rest of the crew can't raise him on the radio and they have to figure out what's going on ... and ultimately try to carry on without him.

At the risk of appearing "rimmier-than-thou", from what I've read the game isn't about being able to control everything, infallibly protecting your favorite colonist, or whatnot.  Clearly, Tynan thought that players were feeling a little too snug and smug in our impenetrable mountain bases and wanted to scare us with something new we can't completely control.  Things are going to get weird sometimes, out of hand sometimes, and we're going to lose a man sometimes.  Not catastrophically, not all the time, but enough to keep us on our toes and uncertain of ourselves.  That makes the game better, not worse.

That scene is upsetting, certainly; neither the moviegoer nor the game player really wants to see that guy get killed.  But you have to admit it's a much better hook for the beginning of a sci-fi thriller than "Man changes shirt without incident."

Jorlem

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 10:00:53 PM
Quote from: Jorlem on April 30, 2016, 08:32:32 PM

However, unlike raiders and drop pods, the hives spawning doesn't drop your speed down to one, so if you are playing on speed three, you need to be fast on the pause button to get your colonists out of harm's way when the hives spawn.

And spread, that is what got me the first time.  Got it paused right before they showed. Moved guys to the hives, but then there was spawn opposite side of the map as well that it didnt goto.  Until I got the colonist need treatment, was no clue of bugs or hive.  So now every infestation, gotta scroll whole map.
Yeah.  That issue is similar to issue with the "Poor/Terrible Mood" and similar alerts. They don't scroll through all the pawns on the list when you click the alert, it just shows you the first one.  When the Infestation event occurs, the alert's "go to" option takes you to the primary site, but there can be others, so there needs to be a way to jump the view between all the hives on the map.

Vaporisor

Quote from: Zombra on April 30, 2016, 11:07:17 PM
Quote from: Vaporisor on April 30, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
Bugs [...] can instakill your best character while doing something menial.  If you have an underground room, there is a reason, and somebody will be in there for that reason.  Could be as simple as your best soldier loaded with bionics going to change his shirt in the storeroom.

Sorry to butt in, but what you're describing isn't a failure on the game's part; on the contrary, it sounds like an awesome scene from a sci-fi movie.  Kickass dudebro soldier deep inside the base, thinks he's safe and relaxes, sets down his gun, pulls off his pants, and suddenly the metallic shrieks of alien predators are all around him and the lights go out.  Now the rest of the crew can't raise him on the radio and they have to figure out what's going on ... and ultimately try to carry on without him.

At the risk of appearing "rimmier-than-thou", from what I've read the game isn't about being able to control everything, infallibly protecting your favorite colonist, or whatnot.  Clearly, Tynan thought that players were feeling a little too snug and smug in our impenetrable mountain bases and wanted to scare us with something new we can't completely control.  Things are going to get weird sometimes, out of hand sometimes, and we're going to lose a man sometimes.  Not catastrophically, not all the time, but enough to keep us on our toes and uncertain of ourselves.  That makes the game better, not worse.

That scene is upsetting, certainly; neither the moviegoer nor the game player really wants to see that guy get killed.  But you have to admit it's a much better hook for the beginning of a sci-fi thriller than "Man changes shirt without incident."

I agree, it is cool, very cool.  I love that the fortress of mountain is no longer safe.  In my opinion, the only issue I have with the bugs is that their emersion doesn't feel organic.  Just the hives appear and the bugs spawn in as a big clump.  For the drop pods and stuff, it doesnt feel bad since from the start of the event, the pods and their occupants are each individual entities.

I would like if the spawning of the insects were more progressive.  Fast, but progressive even if that meant there were more.  The three steps I would like is first the event trigger being disruption in the ground.  Say 10 seconds later, the hive appears and immediately insects start emerging, but not all at once, but as a stream.  It keeps the omg horror show, and I feel would add to it cause now your colonists are running as a wave of insects starts to chase them, not poof instant surround.

Outside of their emersion, I would actually like to see more in the spawn, really feel like a swarm.  Like tribe level of numbers in terms of megascarabs and the pedes.
Stories by Vaporisor

Escaped convicts!
concluded
Altair XIII
Frozen Wastes

Luroshard

Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.
tl;dr: git gud screblerd
pretty much this, i feel like some players are looking for their safespace in this dangerous game.

Britnoth

Quote from: Luroshard on May 01, 2016, 05:02:23 AM
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on April 30, 2016, 08:22:52 PM
If you don't prepare for what you know will come then that's completely your fault.
tl;dr: git gud screblerd
pretty much this, i feel like some players are looking for their safespace in this dangerous game.

The ants are not difficult. In fact they are laughably easy once you know how to fight them.

In fact the biggest problem with the infestation is afterwards, with all the blood and gunk on the ground pissing everyone off.
Often killing them has taken so long everyone is hungry, tired, maybe with a couple of cuts and getting -15 mood from hideous environment...

The issue is there is nothing you can do when enemies teleport into your base and attack you 2 seconds later.

Drop pods you have time to get out the way of. Currently the infestation event you get no time before people die.

If Tynan wants to combat turtling up inside mountains, there are many ways to do it. Instant teleporting enemies is the most frustrating and retarded way you can imagine. It is pure RNG. Much like the rest of this update.

b0rsuk

There is a significant delay, the only issue is with the game not slowing down or pausing.

I discovered shotguns are really nice for door peeking. Good damage, rate of fire, and no extra cooldown. LMG is nice only for longer corridors, and assault rifle mostly just tickles them.

You know what's really awful ? When a predator decides to hunt your animal or colonist, you get the warning the moment he's attacked in melee. I nearly lost a colonist this way, if I got worse hit rolls or my other fighters were further away, the stonecutter would be dead. And the kicker - turrets don't attack animals hunting you!