Let's talk about melee combat

[cultist]

Melee combat has always been in kind of a weird place in this game.

What I mean by this is that melee combat in Rimworld is first and foremost a hard counter to ranged attackers. If you melee a ranged unit, you shut that guy down completely. He might take a few swings at the pawn engaging him, but fists are no match for a longsword or even a club. His ranged friends might take down your melee pawn before he can finish the guy off but they're very likely to hit their buddy in the process.

So the issue I have is that a melee pawn is really best used as ambushers/kamikaze attackers against ranged units. Shields make this more tactical and less suicidal, but it's still the same basic strategy. What I would like to see is more focus on melee vs. melee combat. My suggestion is to make the melee skill more focused around defense than attack. So a high melee skill pawn who engages one or more enemies has a high chance to avoid attacks (or impose a penalty to the attacker, whatever works).
Since the enemy pretty much always has the advantage of numbers, this would make it possible to form a proper melee defense to protect your shooters/turrets. Because melee currently only dictates chance to hit, even a Godlike melee pawn is quickly brought down by numbers. He might take a limb off with every swing, but because he is constantly taking hits he won't be doing it for long.

This also opens up for more variety in melee weapons. There are niche uses for clubs (incap without killing) and gladii (faster attacks) and possibly the spear but the longsword is essentially the sniper rifle of melee weapons because of its high damage, which translates to a higher chance of chopping something off and one-hit downing/killing the enemy. But if gladii had a higher chance of parrying or whatever, you might consider it over a longsword for a more dug-in defense situation.

[Boston]

There is a mod that adds different types of shields (not the "deflect bullets" one already in the game, but heater shields, bucklers, all that), that actually absorb damage based on the pawns melee skill.

[cultist]

There is a mod that adds different types of shields (not the "deflect bullets" one already in the game, but heater shields, bucklers, all that), that actually absorb damage based on the pawns melee skill.

That's cool but I'd rather see this done through skills/evasion. That way a good melee pawn doesn't automatically go down just because he gets mobbed but can actually stand his ground and prevent melee enemies from just running straight into your line of shooters/turrets. Also it means not adding any new items or complexity to the game.

[Boston]

There is a mod that adds different types of shields (not the "deflect bullets" one already in the game, but heater shields, bucklers, all that), that actually absorb damage based on the pawns melee skill.

That's cool but I'd rather see this done through skills/evasion. That way a good melee pawn doesn't automatically go down just because he gets mobbed but can actually stand his ground and prevent melee enemies from just running straight into your line of shooters/turrets. Also it means not adding any new items or complexity to the game.

I mean...... even a great melee fighter going down because they get mobbed is pretty true-to-life. There is nothing wrong with that.

While your skilled fighter can parry one blow pretty easily, the other three guys mobbing him get free shots.

[Mathenaut]

One of the bigger problems with melee is the complete inability to protect regions that often get hit in melee.

This is aside from getting shot up by all of your allies.

[cultist]

One of the bigger problems with melee is the complete inability to protect regions that often get hit in melee.

Are we talking about the frequent eye scars here or something else? I don't feel like melee pawns are at more risk than my shooters. They tend to take more hits because you can't take cover from melee attacks, but enemies rarely spawn with the instant murder melee weapons like good longswords.

[Mathenaut]

One of the bigger problems with melee is the complete inability to protect regions that often get hit in melee.

Are we talking about the frequent eye scars here or something else? I don't feel like melee pawns are at more risk than my shooters. They tend to take more hits because you can't take cover from melee attacks, but enemies rarely spawn with the instant murder melee weapons like good longswords.

Eyes and much of the face are a big problem, along with hands and feet. You can't exactly build classic metal armor that would protect much.
Another thing is that there really is no avoiding damage in melee, which plays into all of the issues related to pawns taking damage (fluke kills, scars, pain, etc).

Not that there should be absolutely 0 attrition (like there functionally is for most ranged combat), but the attrition for melee is far too high. You're looking at coming off with about one scar every couple of engagements. There is no real recovery or mitigation to that.

According to rimworld, the most weathered, veteran fighters aren't hardened and experienced; they're limping, crippled messes that can't hold their own in a fight.

[Chthonic One]

I personally would like to see melee and ranged both get a bit of a rework.

Currently you have a choice. Do I make this pawn a melee only pawn, or a ranged only pawn. The only case where one can be both really involves bionic limbs, which reduce their effectiveness in using their ranged weapon.

Instead I don't see why I should choose one or the other except in certain rare conditions, usually a trait. Instead ranged pawns should be able to carry a small melee weapon, and holster/sling their weapons when an enemy approaches to draw said weapon. A longsword or spear is too large to do this, but a gladius is a short sword, a combat knife, a shiv. All of these could effectively be used.

Also some weapons such as the assault rifle could have a bayonet attachment allowing it to fight like a slow gladius, but allowing more of a defensive value than said gladius. If you ever took bayonet training in the military you'd realize that the weapon makes a good blocking instrument.

For brawlers, the pilum or other thrown weapons should be used. You throw them away at the enemy as you advance. Instead of forcing a pawn however to stop to throw, allow them to advance at a walking pace during the animation, then make them run during the cooldown. This will let your brawler use his 8 shooting attack without making him unhappy to hold a gun.

Certain weapons such as large clubs however should not allow for throwing weapons. I agree that there needs to be low tech shields for these characters. However shields made of wood, or even steel will have a low chance of blocking or deflecting a bullet. Instead I'd like to see plasteel shields as well designed to absorb and deflect bullets while being lighter than steel shields.

This puts characters into several groups for combat:
Noncombat: Those incapable of violence will use a small melee weapon to defend themselves in combat, but they use it defensively to try to disengage, and aren't likely to hurt the opponent.

Guns and Bows: These units carry a small melee weapon. They will sling or holster their gun and draw this weapon if someone is approaching in melee.

Heavy Guns: Guns like the minigun are too large to sling. These units should carry that as a trade off for how effective they can be in combat.

Skirmishers: Those carrying medium or smaller melee weapons into combat should be allowed to have thrown weapons for when they advance. The current shield should not prevent such a low velocity weapon from being used. Medium weapons are of the Longsword variety.

Sword and Board: Those carrying weapons larger than a longsword, that cannot be effectively sheathed can carry a shield instead of having a ranged weapon. This shield can deflect arrows, and occasionally bullets, the best of which is made from plasteel which has a good chance of deflecting a bullet.

As far as injuries are concerned, I feel that if you have a number of competent doctors who can respond quickly, this really isn't an issue. The worst I've had from combat that wasn't a fatality was losing a limb which can be easily replaced. Then again I don't really play on the harder difficulties.
The scars that really get me are the ones that happen to a body part you cannot replace. Torso scars for example. Personally I don't see how a scar should affect HP of a bodypart at all, unless it's completely disfiguring. Perhaps that is what they mean by scars anyways since all other wounds heal completely. Perhaps it should be renamed to disfigurement?

[Mathenaut]

I think the easiest way to do this would be for low-tech armors and shields to just act as phantom health that absorb a percentage of damage based upon type/quality.

Ballistic shields are pretty damn effective both in melee and against non-marksman shooters.

Pawns already have an inventory. Have size-ranges for weapons and restrictions based on those.
Example ranges: small/medium/large
Allow: 2x small, 1x1 small/medium, 1x large; where shields can be small or medium.
Instead of trying to double-up range weapons, simply give all of them a melee rating. A sturdy metal rifle is as solid a club as a block of stone.

Aside, the way scars work in general needs to be tweaked slightly - though, the real issue with scars relates to how pain is managed and how adversely it affects mood. The stakes on scars needs to be lowered, they shouldn't be an issue unless ALOT of them compound over a certain area. Especially since scars don't really make something more vulnerable to damage (would actually be the opposite).

Overall, there's just too much that players have too little control over, and the mechanics aren't as consistent as they could be.

[Negocromn]

OP, I recently wrote a suggestion on pretty much the same theme, here.

To me, melee has some very good pros of its own, such as its overall damage or personal shields, and it also benefits directly from some of the games general mechanics, such as the relatively low weapon range and the limit of one weapon per pawn.

On the other hand, it suffers from a number of issues, some minor like pawn stacks, colony-ruining berserks and bad weapon designing, others major like the frantic trade of blows in melee and all of the associated problems of getting hit dozens of times every fight, such as the steep decrease in capability of the melee fighter as the fight progresses, the always great serious injury chance and the big economic costs with downtime, medics, armor.

There's more detail in my original thread, but basically my suggestion was this:

When a pawn attempts to melee attack another pawn that is not using a ranged weapon, it suffers a penalty on its hit chance per the following formula:

finalhitchance = basehitchance - enemyskill²/1000
finalhitchance ≥ 33%



On your other point, the weapons, I feel like they need a complete rework, it just makes very little sense having all these weapon types with no particular function. It's even worse that they have a clear order of power, from shiv to longsword and from stone to plasteel. So at the end of the day everyone is making plasteel longswords while the dumb AI is spawning hordes of pawns with awful combinations.

My take on this would be to make big weapon categories with very distinct particular features, each housing a bunch of weapons with similar stats. So, combining my suggestion above with this:

Sidearm (fists, powerfists, knives, etc): sidearm, windup before attacking, "50% less skill when defending"
Swords: "25% more skill" when defending
Axes: higher damage, "25% less skill" when defending
Clubs: higher incap chance
Polearms: reach +1, area slow

[BetaSpectre]

Personally I feel like guns are too weak, and instead should shoot faster, much faster.
Imagine a guy running at you with a knife, while you've got a pistol its not hard to know how it ends normally. People don't take entire seconds to aim. Nor do they stay still while firing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s94OKo_KKho

IRL you can run while shooting, to balance out melee/ranged having ranged units being able to fire while on the move with a movement penalty would suffice, or have ranged weapons buffed so that they fire faster making shields less of a guarantee of successful engagement. This way a highly skilled marksman would be superior while a novice would be ground into meat.

[firescythe]

I think that is wrong way to balance. With a handgun you have some chance to hit some one on random bodypart while running, but since there is 1 base movement speed with traits altering it, how do you decide if the pawn is running for his/her life, or just jogging while the melee attacker is "obviously" running on maximum effort?

Run&Gun has always been a special training where I met with it, so maybe a skill10+ may may novice chance to do it, but below that...
Also, I have handgun training, and believe me, while running a direction and firing behind you, it is the last desperate actioin after no other option left - bceause it doesnt really gives a real chance.

[cultist]

Imagine a guy running at you with a knife, while you've got a pistol its not hard to know how it ends normally. People don't take entire seconds to aim. Nor do they stay still while firing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s94OKo_KKho

IRL you can run while shooting, to balance out melee/ranged having ranged units being able to fire while on the move with a movement penalty would suffice, or have ranged weapons buffed so that they fire faster making shields less of a guarantee of successful engagement. This way a highly skilled marksman would be superior while a novice would be ground into meat.

Wait.... CoD is your example of "IRL shooting"? Okay then.
I've never fired a real gun in my life, but common sense alone tells me that your chances of hitting vastly improves if you're not moving and taking time to aim properly.

Also, I would prefer if we could keep the topic on melee weapons. I see how your argument ties into melee, but making guns better only cripples melee vs. shooting instead of improving melee vs. melee (and giving melee colonists a purpose beyond kamikaze attackers/ambushers).

[Mathenaut]

You'd be surprised at the people who stand still when someone is coming at them with a knife. RL isn't a video game.

This is important because most guns that are easy to use don't have alot of stopping power. If your pistol isn't a .45 or higher (which means you aren't firing on the move while hitting much), you need a well-placed shot or you're getting stabbed.

You don't have auto-correcting aim or a reticle in RL. You can practice this at home, actually. Get laser pen and put it on a 2.5lb weight. See how long it takes you to train it on a target, then see how well you do it while running.

In practice, you don't see laser sights for much. Those are more for other people than for the shooter, and you'll find that the laser sight is actually misleading. You'll essentially have to train your accuracy through muscle memory, which is what is being 'simulated' in FPS games.

[Listen1]

I believe the melee is working as intended. Since you can't hold two weapons at the same time, If someone holding a sword gets near to you, you will be heavily damaged.

I built a defense with the chess pattern using walls, and if anyone with gunned raiders entered that zone, my colonist would just wreck them. Right now the only strong point in melee is closed quarters combat. If you use that in your defense, you will be surprised on it's efficiency. Except against Mechanoids... And Tribals... and that ones that come with plasteel gladius...

But against those, even normal gun fire defenses can fail. The zerg rush can be troublesome, Mech defenses are insane, and the dudes may come with masterwork shields that become a problem.

The idea of parrying is very nice, in a melee sword fight, both sides take heavy dmg, and fall into numbers. If you develop parry, the better you are in melee, the more damage you will be able to prevent. That also works for hunting, right now melee hunting is 100% unviable, but for hunting small creatures, melee would be great.

For flavor "This piece of art contemplates Justin parrying a rabbit's teeth on 15th of spring 5500, there is a cow burning in the lower part of the picture."