Transgender bathroom arguement.

[mumblemumble]

TRIGGER WARNING : Don't read this if you aren't particularly thick skinned. I'm not liable if you get your jimmies rustled. You have been warned.























So LGBT people argue trans need rights and protections in order to be safe, and respected.

This of course, is causing massive backlash from many.

One of the arguments is that men or women could "claim" to be transgender to enter the other bathroom, and little could be done to prevent it. And really this is true, what verification can you make? ask them how they "feel" if they "feel" trans? Any man could just answer yes and be defended by LGBT rules.

Many say that "no trans people have been arrested", yet, this is a moot statement as "trans" as a defining factor can be removed just as easily as given. Say a "trans" man wears a dress and takes photos in a girls bathroom, gets arrested. Will he be declared trans in the statistic? Maybe, maybe not. That is a problem, the "statistics" are so incredibly flexible that people could claim to be trans to get in, yet when arrested, be called not trans and just "a pervert", despite claiming to be so. This is even more likely when you consider news RARELY gives trans people their preferred gender title, so its easier to hide this.

So, what do you think would help? There is obviously no "real" way to verify it, and the risks involved are huge. I personally think, that, given trans are generally adults and an extremely small minority, its better to give them the shaft than to risk openly tolerated perversion under the guise of tolerance. Its comparing risks to a few to many, many women and children.

And don't think there haven't been issues, there have.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/5190/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo

It seems all a guy needs to do to get into a bathroom, womens shelter, locker room, ect, is say "trans" and hes in. After all, arguing against is considered bigoted.

So what do you guys think?

I honestly think this shows the endless complications, headaches, problems, and issues that come with transgenderism. It isn't verifiable, keeping a neutral zone is harder ; mens and womens areas work wonderfully, minus the occasional violent gay / lesbian, but trans people are IMPOSSIBLE to put into a public area without drawing attention of some sort particularly if not 100% passable nude (99.9% of trans are not) and theres also risk of exposure to children, which is a massive headache / heart ache of having to possibly give sex ed to a 6 year old girl because she sees a transgenders penis in the locker room.

Not to mention most women are absolutely NOT ok with a trans "girl" entering their bathroom as seen here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHt7EBCgJnI

But regardless, I want to hear what you guy think.

[godsring]

Well it's simple. The world needs to stop taking sex so seriously...
Think gender neutrality.. if we didn't make such a big deal about sex then it wouldn't be a big deal ... such as not even having a male female bathroom and always just having "family" bathrooms.. It has been proven to work well.

[A Friend]

Just make everyone use bathroom stalls.

[mumblemumble]

Proven in what sense? I've not seen proof of it working, and family bathrooms working don't work just because "family" is in the name. It also depends on the area, demographics, security, and other factors.

And really, sex IS a serious thing, it can cause countless diseases if done improper, sex drives are in everyone, and can often lead to very bad decisions if not carefully controlled / kept away from temptation, sexual assault can cause debilitating injuries to someone mentally / emotionally, and as I pointed out with the links above, this has ALREADY lead to several assaults / other problems, when a random guy claims "yo, im transgender, let me into the female shelter" and the authorities cannot deny him because discrimination is illegal. Then when assaults happen several times, after emotional scars are made in these women, THEN it is dealt with. Not to mention, your "solution" doesn't at all touch on these assaults, and its pretty much saying "everyone else needs to change", rather than policy. I wasn't asking what society should do, but what policies should be made to protect people.

Besides, no matter what, many people will ALWAYS be against transgenderism, if not outright hate them. It will quite literally never go away, ever. Even if you eliminated religion, there's too many people who will grow to hate them from last minute "by the way I'm a trans" situations, people becoming trans after marrying someone, or just people noticing psychological trends in them. So no, your solution won't work, because it isn't possible, sorry.

Stalls is really not a solution, women's restrooms are nothing but stalls already, so that literally is a pointless suggestion. Plus, honest, more people are worried about assaults in the womens room than mens. Generally few men care about a woman taking testosterone entering the mens room, though men taking estrogen can be extremely uncomfortable in the mens room as well. Really, there's no "good" place to put them without isolating them. And that would mean a separate 3rd restroom for all places, could you imagine that kind of cost?

Also, I'm starting to sense perhaps nobody checked my links... There is proof of issues there, of people abusing this "rule". The one in Toronto is particularly bad, as the guy harassed multiple girls who were already in a very bad place, being in a shelter, and hurt them far worse. Those girls didn't choose to be homeless, though, like it or not, trans people CHOOSE to take the ACTIONS of being trans ie hormones, dress, habits, ect. Trans people will devote massive amount of time,  money, and resources willfully to get hormones, to get clothes, surgery, ect, and nobody forces them to go out spending money on them.

[godsring]

Try reading a little about sweden's gender neutral schools and how effective it is

http://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2016/feb/02/swedish-schools-gender-alien-concept

On another note of course we couldn't just stop with our current mindsets we are humans.

But say 100 years from now doing what sweden is we could eliminate the problem in the long term.. which is imo more important.

[mumblemumble]

Ever wonder why Sweden?

Because Sweden men are far, far, FAR less masculine on average, due to a culture shaming, and trying to discourage it. They didn't used to be that way, but they were changed by the feminism shoehorning into the culture. This is part of the reason the birth rates there were lower a while back, rad feminism is rampant there, and any display of masculinity is pretty much shunned. This is also a problem with the whole "rape capitol of the world" situation, the men who would of protected the women from those immigrants attacking are now less masculine, and thus, less combative.

Where as, some place like, say,  brazil, life is much harder, masculinity is much more prevalent, this would not work. Course, brazil is crazy anyways, so I doubt people there would give 2 shits about the rights of a transgender anyways, theres much more important stuff to worry about than that over there.

Its cultural things that make it that way, where such bathrooms can "work", but there's a heavy price for shunning masculinity.

Oh, and bathrooms being for all genders essentially combines all problems together, the only one being fixed is "do you have a right to be in here", which by getting rid of that only causes more. Trans people can still get assaulted in them, both by males, and females, people WILL be made uncomfortable by them (the bathrooms), sexual assault / misconduct will be more prevalent since separation of males and females aren't a thing, ect. Literally only problem solved is preventing arguments of "who goes where", which is really the least of the problems once that happens.

And 100 years time I doubt people will find it different. If there are reasons for people thinking something, even if you disagree, people will eventually discover / act on these reasons, even if such thinking had been suppressed. So when someone notices a bunch of sexual harassment in bathrooms, they might, in those 100 years say "hey, I know a way to cut sexual misconduct, give men and women different bathrooms". And besides that, getting people to be ok with unisex bathrooms is an uphill battle.... I sense people tolerate it, but don't actually like it, like MANY things.

[milon]

Mumble, I'm confused and concerned by what I'm seeing here.  It seems that you go out of your way to point out all the negatives related to a small subset of humanity (LGBT community) while ignoring those SAME negatives in larger/dominant subsets (hetero community).

Examples:  Trans using either bathrooms causing harassment?  What about hetero school/workplace sexual harassment?  It's way more common and just as damaging.  LGBT sex spreads disease?  So does hetero sex, only there's a LOT more people engaging in hetero sex if you're right about your numbers.  I could be more specific, but you get the idea.

You don't strike me as a bully, but why else would you single out a minority group with negative intent?  Do you just need to be right about something?  Are you looking for something to control?  I don't get it.  I want these forums to be safe for all participants, but I know I wouldn't feel safe if I belonged to a minority group you didn't approve of.

EDIT - Thanks for clarifying, and for the OP edit.  Carry on!

[mumblemumble]

I can appreciate the concern milon, and no, you are right, I am not a bully. I bring it up because frankly, I think dialog must be had on such topics : not to spread "hate" or try to hurt people, but to point out very real, very dangerous realities of our world. Transgenderism will always be a delicate topic, there will always be hate, and violence will always be a possibility. Its just a fact, and I think cases of a transgender woman getting maced, or tazed, or otherwise by a woman in a womans room isn't too farfetched, so is it really that much of an improvement for "safety"?

I'm aware heterosexuality has its own faults. Men vs women dynamic is such that I could write a book on it, each gender views the other as an "enemy" even covertly, and often works for their best interests, and against the opposite sex, while really both selflessly focusing on the other would build much more solid, healthy, and powerful relationships. That and the delicate balance of sexism where men and women are indeed different (and people MUST realize and accept this) but neither should be viewed as "fully" inferior or superior due to any set strength / weakness of the gender. But I don't think any heterosexual issue is as pressing, or as urgent as the topic at hand, concerning the safety of everyone, and plausible solutions to it. It is very clear to me, as asinine as I think the idea is, it won't be vanishing soon. So I might as well talk, and see if any consensus can be reached on the topic. After all, this topic effect EVERYONE, not just transgendered.

Sorry if I seem a bit hostile milon, not my intention at all. As to why I am pointing out so many negatives, I suppose its because my argument against the bathroom thing would be instead trying to move people away from the idea of transgenderism. Even if people have gender dysphoria (I've had it before, it fucking SUCKS, I don't blame anyone who has had it) I do think trying to address the underlying causes of dysphoria is better than trying to transition, and arrange something like this, and attempting to keep things safe and secure. Its about minimizing damage to society; every option presented, to an extent, will cause damage, no solution is ever perfect, especially not for this. Question is, how do we hurt the least amount of people? One might think the simple answer is instate such bathrooms, BUT, as shown in the articles, this leads to more grey areas than 50, and again, since transgenderism is such an incredibly vague, open definition, literally any man can call himself transgender and get into the womans restroom if they want, saying they just started yesterday. People won't like it, will know its bs and the guy might be a creep, but legally, there's absolutely no way to stop them once they say the magic words "I identify as a girl". This is exactly what happened in Toronto, and that ended badly.

At very least, quantifying and weighing the persons transition status as part of it would be a huge thing. For instance, how long (on record) have they been on hormones? Have they had surgery? ect. Such things could at very least keep random dudes from hanging in the women's room just on this basis, if they have no hormones / surgery yet. Its nowhere near a perfect solution (I would personally prefer a different idea of course) But its a compromise to say the least. Something I haven't seen on either side, much less cross position dialog, which I'm trying to coax out right now, with little luck... But I guess very few people feel even remotely comfortable discussing worse case scenarios of this.

Final notes, I mean no harm to anyone, trans, gay, or otherwise, so feeling safe shouldn't be an issue, unless of course you mean someone being harmed by criticism , in which case, I will put a trigger warning in the first post JUST for this reason. For the harassment, harassment of all kinds (hetero, gay, lesbian, trans bashing, ect)  could still occur with a neutral bathroom, so I'm kinda grouping it together. Even if harassment wouldn't be done by / against genuine transgender people, it opens the doorway to much more harassment of all kinds by effectively removing gender barriers to anyone who wishes them gone if they only say the magic words. This is the core of my concern. There is, legally speaking, no distinguishing between a 5 year transitioned transgendered, and a sex offended who out of the blue calls himself trans and tries to enter a place.

[milon]

Thanks for the clarification.  I think I lost the track of what you were saying after reading a few instances of "there will ALWAYS be hate, and violence too".  I believe that to be technically true, but I didn't really see anyone else bringing it up, so that colored my reading of you.  That was my mistake, and I'm sorry about that.

You mention that "very few people feel even remotely comfortable discussing worse case scenarios", and that may be true too.  But personally, I didn't realize the goal was to discuss worst case, so again I was reading negativity where it wasn't intended.  It may be helpful to begin by stating that, or people may assume that you're coming at it from a this-is-how-it-is perspective, rather than a this-is-an-extreme-edge-case-worth-talking-about perspective.  (But you know what they say - opinions are like armpits; everybody has them.  This is just my opinion. )

That's actually one of the reason I haven't clicked any of your links.  I assumed you had a this-is-how-it-is perspective, so I assumed the links were random articles with the same attitude and didn't bother.  In all honesty, you can find an article in favor of pretty much anything no matter how crazy or insane (and with slight data manipulation you can make it look like the stats back it up).  Again, my assumption, and my bad.

The other reason I didn't click anything was because tldr.  I quickly get lost in word-walls and either skim for key words or skip it entirely.  I recognize the irony I'm creating with a long post of my own, but as good authors will tell you, "If I had more time, I would have written less."  Getting more across with fewer words is one of the best things any writer can accomplish, and I have to go to work now, so there's no more time to edit this down.

Cheers!

[Listen1]

Mumble, I'm glad you explained what you meant, and i'm gonna try to show my opnion on this subject:

I live in Brazil and in here it's commum to see 12 year old girls pregnant, mass rapes happening, "parties" for underages use drugs and have sex to be later used on sex slavery, young girls being forced to prostitution because of debts that her family made.

And i'm not talking about one case or another that splashes in the news. That happens with thousands people everyday. Rio's civil police state that in the first quarter of 2013, 1,822 rapes were committed, while only 70 persons were arrested for these crimes. That is one city, on one quarter of a year where our economy was on the rise. Things got pretty grim this last three years. In Brazil where the man are "manly"... I'd rather live in Sweden.

On the bathroom problems, Gay people don't need another bathroom. Transgender shouldn't need one too. I've already saw Transgender that looked and behaved exactly like a woman. If she didn't talk we wouldn't even know she was a man.

If an argument is Transgenders raping people on the oposite sex bathroom, the problem is not the transgender, it's the rape. How do you solve this? the same way you solve Heterosexual rape (Don't know how to solve it easily). If someone is an actual transgender, he/she will behave like the oposite sex. And he should use the bathroom of the oposite sex knowing that he may get some bad looks. If he/she decides to become one, he has to be ready to face this prejudice.

Now about the "Weird" feeling you might get when you see a transgender in the toilet, I have the same weird feeling when I see two men kissing, when there is a drunk playboy using a "yolo" cap puking on a table just because, or an artist filled with huge piercings an all-body tatoos.

I've made peace in my mind that this are the new days, I live in a small 30.000 inhabitants city, and the stated is not very comum here. But when I go to the big centers and see this, I feel weird seeing this, like this is not part of my reality. But I will not object to this. I'll try to understand and

EDIT: Just my opinion =) Feel free to discuss it

[Carl Marks]

   America is unusual in two ways: fast food and nerdy young people talk about the problems of society.

[mumblemumble]

Glad to see we got the misunderstandings flattened out.

As for the links, they are this :

First is a list of 5 instances of something going wrong with the transgender law. Guys getting let into womens shelters and sexually assaulting women using that as an excuse, masculine men who do not even try to appear girly laying around naked in womens locker rooms, ect...  And besides the sexual assault, nothing could be done at all, since the law is based ONLY on what the person says... I can literally,  legally speaking, go from cis to trans 30 times in as many minutes, if I just say so, and that is the terrifying part, its ONLY if the person says so how they determine it, atm. I have no big issue for fully hormoned, surgery done people using the restroom : I really could not give a rats. But the fact that any guy, even myself, could walk into a womans bathroom by saying that, and legally be allowed is scary.

The second is a video of a social experiment of a guy dressing as a trans, despite being a full on dude, and entering a restroom to see how average women react. 3/4 scream at him and tell him to GTFO. So women are obviously very uncomfortable with it on average. Its maybe less relevant to the discussion, but I wanted to show it just to bring home why it effects "comfort". Especially because most people think of trans as fully transitioned, hormone filled, and surgery done, while most trans are, at least to start out, just in clothes of the opposite sex.

And yes, while these are "worst case scenarios", since they make them much more possible than they are currently, I don't think dismissing them as such is a good idea. Particularly when attempts / general lewdness like a grown man lounging naked around little girls can be legally defended.

@Rockbass

I'm sorry to hear about the situation in brazil, I'm well aware its pretty grim there. However, do not forget rape is actually quite high in sweden lately, so if it were to escape that, it wouldn't be the best plan.

Again (I'm honestly getting tired of repeating this lol) I'm far less worried about a male on estrogen attacking a girl in the bathroom, as I am if an outwardly masculine guy CLAIMED to be trans entered, and assaulted : as this is much, much more likely. I agree that trans should "act" like their "gender", but this still doesn't touch gender fluid, ect. And the law doesn't care, in current status, how they act, so long as they say they are x or y. I agree with you, they should act the part, but how would you define it legally to prevent such atrocities? Its an extremely delicate balance : Every bit of rules which protects women and children from potential perverts trying to abuse the rule also forces potential trans people into a non proffered bathroom / locker, and vice versa. The question is, where do we draw the line? how much of each do we value?

And yes, I'm aware that there's all kinds of differences....but I've for several years now, always asked the WHY of things. Something which the west has pretty much stopped doing entirely as a people.

@ carl : I kinda, sorta agree, except few ask questions as to why what happens. Most just hear things, parrot it, don't examine hard whys, and shoot down hard questions as racist, homophobic, bigoted, or strangely, even ignorant. I'm not one of those though, I believe truth can fear no questioning, as questioning is like gasoline to a flame : it only makes it stronger, it won't extinguish it. Though an electronic candle which "acts" like flame might go out if doused with gas, short circuiting. =)

[milon]

I essentially agree with Rockbass & mumble.  The problem is less how people identify, and more what they do regardless of identification.

@ Carl Marks (LOL), what you're touching on is convenience and gossip.  And last I checked, those are 2 things that most humans love, American or not.

[mumblemumble]

I would actually say the problem is, legally it's only bound to saying it,  absolutely nothing else.  Its like a kid getting away with something because he says "sorry".  They might not be sorry, but simply making that noise from your mouth excuses you some.  Same principle,  except very dangerous. I cannot overstate enough. "i am transgender".  See? Legally speaking,  I'm now considered as such due to saying that.  I can now legally enter womens rooms where the law exists,  just based on that. Scary right? The fact that any man,  on a whim,  can enter a womans room with just these little words.  Because lets face it,  most places are too terrified of a lawsuit to argue.

That,  and there are already documented cases of people un- transitioning after,  which COMPLETELY destroys the "born this way"  theory which was already a leaky vessel (its not just from birth,  theres causes).  The fact that people can transition back,  and are often left humiliated, damaged, and with a massive part if their life wasted says a lot about how much water the trans idea holds in general.

More importantly, why can't I criticize transgenderism? I'm not advocating for violence or anything, just pointing out countless flaws.

[keylocke]

i think it boils down to 2 things :

-attraction
-consent

once physical (maybe even mental and psychological) "attraction" becomes a more level playing field via genetic modifications or just the natural breeding of sexy hawt people going on a population explosion (there are more beautiful/smart people today compared to the past, thanks to natural selection), "consent" would be easier to achieve or at least have multiple available alternatives that the "risk vs reward" of getting sexy times vs punishment becomes a moot point.. hence lowering (maybe completely obliterating) the need for "exploitative sexual behavior".

so gender issues intermingling with each other also becomes a moot point, coz attraction and consent gets a new paradigm shift.

ie : beautiful/handsome people walking around buttnekid would rarely get complaints for indecency from the other grownups, because everyone is like a walking piece of art..

other than from the "we must protect the kids from lewdness" crowd and the religious high-horse brigade, which are a completely separate topic of "morality" focused on other archaic terms like "innocence" and "censorship".. etc..