Transgender bathroom arguement.

[mumblemumble]

alright, fair point on age, but younger demographics are almost ALWAYS less aware.

Look at the study....SPECIFICALLY....SAYS... AFTER...SURGERY.... CAN....YOU....READ! Are you saying sexual reassignment surgery IS NOT sexual reassignment? Or are you just intentionally dodging the question?

I disagree with the man SAYING he disagrees with the data he made, essentially denying the work he did. Disagreeing with him, and his data are 2 different things. Weak-sauce argument.

Like stated above : NO PROOF that hes NOT lying about going back on it. He could of been bribed

Figure this way.... if I do a study...proving WHATEVER.... I can, if someone pays me later say "no no no no no, this was out of context, so much out of context" in an interview, but with 0 scientific data SAYING its out of context. I think this is what the guy did. Granted, its a theory, not a fact, but YOU have no proof him saying his original study was wrong is true. Theres no evidence saying the 2 groups had different rates. Unless you can show a part in the actual STUDY, the one from .gov, you have no argument. You have no way to tell hes not lying.

And EVEN IF apparently suicide is not higher for people after  a certain period (not saying it is ) the death rate is STILL much higher. Care to explain?

Unless you answer, or at least TRY to answer each of these, it is EXTREMELY obvious you are not having any points, or reasoning.  So far ALL you have is a swear word (which one? Screw it) and the mistaken idea on age, BUT, you have presented nothing, and are ignoring my data repeatedly

[Tortuosit]

Haha, transgender again, it's a thing I heard.
Can we discuss "violence is not a solution IRL and ingame"? The Munich attacker played Counterstrike, our minister of interior will put computer games on the agenda.

Please Tynan, hurry up, make Rimworld a teletubby land for distribution in Germany. With purple ponies please. And as we are morally so inferior, for anybody on earth. TIA, scnr

[Kegereneku]

Just reminding a perspective that is getting ...scissored and lost among the mumbling.

From a Transhumanist point of view the gender have no importance, only the "person" as a thinking entity do.
So the choice/envy/willingness to change sex is not a disorder nor a deviation from a "normal & sane" baseline. It is to be separated entirely from distinct mental state (that may or may not be wrote off as "disorder") or pressure from (current) social environment, all of which can be changed.

To rehashbring back an earlier example : It is pointless to mention that LGBT have an higher suicide-rate. For starter because our society is still growing out of old  sexist,homophobic,racist and anti-progress dogma, then because we know there's whole community of people with mental disorders that make them harass anybody who threaten their worldview. Be it physically, psychologically, or socially by making up false medical study to outcast people they dislike.

Said short : It is entirely context-dependent.
Gender may be biologically different, but for all practical purpose the mind, intelligence, consciousness, "soul" or whatever you want to call it, is the only thing that matter and are to be considered as equal (for practical purpose again).

Again from a transhumanist point of view, the gender-switch surgery itself is also simply a procedure (sometime required medically) that can be improved a lot (including the psychological aspect). It obey the same consideration for safety than any other technology and if there's one things we know it's that Technology reshape society. You can control it, but you can't prevent it.


To lighten the mood, here's a webcomic strip showcasing the concept of transhumance a post-scarcity world with ultimate mind/body reconstruction.
(It's called "Schlock Mercenary" and I recommend it)

For the spoiler, it goes badly, but for very out of the box reasons.

Haha, transgender again, it's a thing I heard.
Can we discuss "violence is not a solution IRL and ingame"? The Munich attacker played Counterstrike, our minister of interior will put computer games on the agenda.

Please Tynan, hurry up, make Rimworld a teletubby land for distribution in Germany. With purple ponies please. And as we are morally so inferior, for anybody on earth. TIA, scnr

Be careful with what you ask ! Don't you know that colorful talking pony have their own particularly odd fandom and is rip to become the next source of everything that is wrong in the world.
Soon you'll have Extremist trying to make the "CONVERSION BUREAU" a reality.
** shudder **

Joke aside, if you made a topic "Is there a link between Video-game and Violence ?" you are sure to get answer.

[mumblemumble]

The main issue I have with this perspective, is I believe it is an inferiority complex : That males (or females) Think females (or males) are superior, or that they are inferior because of their sex. Think of it this way : If you absolutely, and with no doubt believed men were evil, worthless, inferior, stupid, disgusting, ect, ect, would you want to BE that thing? Most likely not. Now, connect those traits with your gender : one might want to deny that they ARE that gender, so they could deny they are such traits, even just internally. You see this many places with say, white guilt (lol) and people doing their absolute damnedest to say "No no no! I might look white, and be 80% irish, But I'm a native!", or something along those lines, Or men surrounded by feminists trying to appear less masculine to be perceived as "less evil"

I ask you show me ANY transgender, that has ever said "I would have shit so much better, so much easier, and so much happier in my life in general if I was the other gender". MANY normal people think this, and have inferiority complexes, but don't transition, but I have never heard of a transgender doing it : not once. So if it is INDEED the body not aligned with the mind, and NOT the mind having inferiority about the body, I would think this would have happened, especially in the gender polarized culture. Also, if trans people did this, they would perhaps think on Detransitioning....which does happen..BUT, if its the mind not matching the body AS YOU SAY, Then one could totally say this, but still be trans because they aren't matching, yes?  You would find an mtf saying occasionally "Damnit, I wish I was a man so I could get all these benefits of men" or the opposite with MtF

If you have evidence of this happening, PLEASE show me. Except, I think any trans who would ever think this would start detransition

Oh and I've seen many times where this perception is evident. TS pornstar "big dick bitch", in an interview she saw his seductress mother as powerful as she always took advantage of WEAK men. Blaire white herself has said before "she became trans because she FAILED as a man". Trans I have known said that, after being raped as a child, that they wanted to be a "big strong man, who couldn't be raped" (yes I know, men can be raped, but this is verbatim what she said)

This all ties back to negative and positive association : If one has an INTENESELY negative view on something, they won't want to be it anymore. And if something you AREN'T has a VERY possitive association, you will strive to be this.

A few examples outside transgenderism. If you were say, a meat eater, and saw things EVERY day, of animals being tortured, beaten, skinned, ground up alive in giant processing machines (yes this happens) and hearing in videos the deafening shrieks of dying, and about to be killed animals, while workers ignore it and kill them by the numbers without the slightest care.... Guess what? You will perhaps feel a bit insecure about meat. Even if you LOVE meat, you now have an association drawn with cruelty and meat. And anyone whom isn't psychotic will not WANT to be cruel as a general rule without reason. So, theres multiple psychological branches. One can ignore it, and act like they didn't see it. Fixate on it, and internally demonize eating meat. Or even come to the realization something along the lines of "death is the way of the world, and the cruelty done by the butchers is not my own", and accept that this DOES happen, yet is not their fault. Which can end either with being a vegetarian, being in denial, or being in acceptance while eating meat.

At the inverse : if smoking is looked at as cool : a kid sees the boys with cars in middle school smoking, sees the guys getting laid smoking, ect ect, one might figure "smoking will make me LIKE THEM". So despite the fact smoking itself holds no alure, the association does : They wish to be LIKE the cool kids, and smoke to be a little more LIKE the cool kids. This is a possitive association: Where smoking associates with "cool" so people want to do it to BE "cool". Granted, this can go multiple ways like the last one : a kid can try to smoke, to be cool, bending to the perceived pressure, which will also be reinforced by new social opportunities. ("hey man, got a smoke?" is a very good way to make a friendship). They can deny it (which, honestly, is healthier) and simply ignore, OR, they can connect that, while these people are cool, the smoking itself is NOT the cause of them being cool.

please keep in mind the third requires processing a lot of emotions, something which trans people are VERY bad at, they always try to escape, or ignore unpleasant feelings.

Oh also, blaming bullying is a cop out : passing trans would have much less problems then, yes? Thus, a lower suicide rate? Except its higher, shown in the study? I guess it is a stretch to say SRS recipients are all passing, but I would argue most are , given the hormones for so long. Please show a study where life IMPROVES for these people.

And another point: Bullying exists everywhere. People get shit for being gay, christian, jewish, black, white, cis, everything under the sun. And bullying will always exist. This said, at least on LUDEON : I am the EXTREME minority for my views against transgendered, and I am NOT a bully. I have never said anything bad like all trans people need to be killed, Infact I've said the exact opposite. And I get opposition for it. If I was spouting stuff like "kill all trannies", I GAURENTEE, I would be banned within the hour, permanently.

But, while I do not do it, people doing outright bullying are VERY quickly shunned almost everywhere, can be legally prosecuted, shunned socially, economically attacked, fired, arrested, even KILLED for such views. So how is the culture against LGBT in most of society if theres LAWS protecting them, MOST people accept them, and people QUESTIONING (not even harassing) them will be shunned? If this is the case, why am I not a nervous wreck, suicidal over people saying I should kill myself, and they will find and kill me for some of my traits? Maybe because trans people AREN'T suicidal because of that, but because something else is the cause. After all, religious folks are shunned FAR more than trans by mainstream culture, so shouldn't they be less stable?

And theres no proof, or evidence indicating bullying is the cause : Its a theory, with no basis, no hard proof, and plenty of evidence against it.

[Kegereneku]

This discussion will lead nowhere if you ignore other opinions and simply regurgitate what you believe to be true in the hope it stick.
I say that because I don't think you understood said Transhumanist perspective enough to give an opinion. If you did I would expect you to address a lot of its core-idea that are in direct conflict with yours. (like the idea that a Mind/consciousness is not bound to his body)

I gather that you believe the "mind need to be aligned with body(gender)", which resonate with an upbringing that males and females have different "roles" and mentality. But those are old cultural dogma and misconception which have been and keep being disproved as soon as Societies stop enforcing the socials rules that created those beliefs.
In practice our brain's plasticity is more than capable of handling a gender change just like it already cope up with the incredibly complex and numerous layers of abstract rules that make a Civilization, to say nothing of a technological one with multiple layers of Augmented-Reality.

Society change and so must obsoletes socials codes, like "Women can't fight on the front-line" or "homosexual are dangerous deviant".
Ultimately, if we push our quest for Individual freedom to its conclusion there is no reason to forbid anybody from changing sex if they so wish to. Only the current difficulty of the task, the length of the process and the responsibility shared by doctors on the outcome make it require more precaution. But if it get easier and safer in the future... we will discover that there is little to no reasons either to forbid some much more disturbing body modification.

I ask you show me ANY transgender, that has ever said "I would have shit so much better, so much easier, and so much happier in my life in general if I was the other gender"

...
Well, for starter I have one in my own frigging family who did it for that very reason : He live happier now.
Second, that probably the case of every of those who weren't born transsexual or those who had the choice later. If someone chose to change sex because they consider it's better for them. Who are you to pretend to know better than themselves ?
Even if they come to regret it later, it still not anyone's place to decide for them.

To repeat what I said in an precedent answer to you (that I wonder if you noticed) your argumentation is plagued with logical fallacies, nitpicked example & absurd generalization, when it's not "making shit up".

For example, your idea that transgender is mainly about escapism is devoid of proof outside your own personal interpretations.
Same can be said about the so called "correlation of sexual insecurity & rape leading to transgenderism". Those nonsense originated from religious propaganda (like the "Chick tract's") who sometime entirely made up a rape story for a trans who actually changed for their own reasons.

After some research on "Blaire White" have yet to see any sign of her defending anything close to your opinion. (you'll excuse me if I don't trust you to interpret someone else opinions objectively). The Pornstar example is also nowhere near a generalized case. By the way, I'm interested to know why you consider her situation concern anybody else.

A few examples outside transgenderism.
[...]meat eating [...]smoking

Let's be careful not to launch a sub-topic.
Frankly, I don't see how those examples explain or justify your perspective in any way.
The question of Killing animals show that what would be clearly ethic (like recognizing a transgender right to be recognized as another gender) is not always enforced as much as it should.
The example of smoking show that people can do stupid thing (like being Transphobic) because of social pressure, no matter how bad it is.

please keep in mind the third requires processing a lot of emotions, something which trans people are VERY bad at, they always try to escape, or ignore unpleasant feelings.
{{CITATION NEEDED}}

That's probably one of the clearest sign of your transphobia so far.
It's as if someone said "all transphobic persons are mentally retarded and VERY bad at thinking rationally".

I am the EXTREME minority for my views against transgendered, and I am NOT a bully.

Are you trying to cast yourself as a victim of something ? what ?
I wish to believe you do not have any bad intent. Only genuine ignorance. But know that willingly spreading misinformation, rumors, or study that your know to be false about a minority group (to make them look bad or make their life hell), count as 'bullying' (or harassment, or spreading hate).

Being another sort of minority yourself don't make it fair, or yourself a more persecuted one.
Basic history knowledge show that LGBT people had and still have it far worse than you. You are unlikely to get harassed (or killed) for the opinions you've shown and your "kind" never was treated as madman/tortured/killed/burned for most of history.
People against social progress only get arrested if they commit a crime. Being Lesbian/Gay/Bi or Trans should never have been a crime.

I'm myself a minority group of exactly one person, nobody else think exactly like me about the usage of sarcasm.

Oh also, blaming bullying is a cop out : passing trans would have much less problems then, yes? Thus, a lower suicide rate? Except its higher, shown in the study? I guess it is a stretch to say SRS recipients are all passing, but I would argue most are , given the hormones for so long. Please show a study where life IMPROVES for these people.

You misunderstand this so hard, one can really question if you are doing it on purpose.
Passing trans are precisely the one more likely to be "bullied", and ARE in fact insulted, harassed, persecuted and stigmatized. Explaining that the higher suicide rate come far less from any "inner problem", but from social pressure.

Basic common sense say that NOT BEING HARASSED/OSTRACIZED for what you are DO IMPROVE your life... which is the point. LGBT people's life improve if you stop trying to pretend most have mental disorder.
Also, because of how the internet work, even Transgender who are nearly unnoticeable risk the same if it get known.

BTW : claiming something to be a cop out, can be a cop out itself.

And theres no proof, or evidence indicating bullying is the cause : Its a theory, with no basis, no hard proof, and plenty of evidence against it.

Err.... that's so common knowledge, you are either in denial... or being knowingly negationist.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072932/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/
...
Just search yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

[mumblemumble]

I reject opinions if they have no basis, and no proof behind them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If there's no evidence, ignoring them is better than taking them as fact. But, I even CONSIDER them, i just don't take them as proof.

Gender roles are actually better for people : mother and father filled houses create better offspring. https://www.aei.org/publication/children-in-two-parent-families-do-better-in-life/ Please note, some say this is due to income, but again, 0 evidence is provided. Oh and many transgendered DITCH their families because of it, which is incredibly irresponsible.

As for your studies, first off I find it Ironic you bring up suicide, when I brought it up too : The idea of them committing suicide in droves because "Da bullies" is just asinine. I got the shit kicked out of me in middle school for being white. Then I committed suicide. Oh wait, No I didn't because I had thicker skin than that, and I had a semi healthy mindset.

But honestly, lets break these down.... Keep in mind, being trans (NOT feeling gender dysphoria, this is entirely different) Is absolutely volentary : Nobody threatens to kill them if they DON'T make conscious efforts to be trans.


Suicide attempts among trans men
(46%) and trans women (42%) were
slightly higher than the full sample (41%). 
Cross-dressers assigned male at birth
have the lowest reported prevalence of
suicide attempts among gender identity
groups (21%). - Ok, so basically it scales with how much the derangement goes.
•
Analysis of other demographic variables
found prevalence of suicide attempts
was highest among those who are younger (18 to
24: 45%), multiracial (54%) and American Indian or
Alaska Native (56%), have lower levels of educational
attainment (high school or less: 48-49%), and have
lower annual household income (less than $10,000:
54%). - Young people in general commit suicide more... So do broke people, and multiracial is its own bag of worms.
•
Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among
those who disclose to everyone that they are
transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and
among those that report others can tell always (42%)
or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender
or gender non-conforming even if they don't tell them. - So they are depressed about reality? This didn't even MENTION any form of bullying. Only conclusion is the reality that they ARE their born gender depresses them, and they are in DENIAL. I would like to hear any theory besides this : The fact most trans get insulted, and depressed, when you remind them what they are lends even more evidence to this. And if you ask for a citation, try going to a closeted trans and tell them they are trans : They WILL get upset.
•
Respondents who are HIV-positive (51%) and
respondents with disabilities (55-65%) also have
elevated prevalence of suicide attempts.  In particular,
65 percent of those with a mental health condition
that substantially affects a major life activity reported
attempting suicide. - Yup, aids is higher if you are sexually promiscuous as hell, which most transgender people are, as they invite any sex they can get sometimes : Wanting approval of any sort before safety. If most people WILL NOT date you, you will jump at the opportunity for attention, even prostitution, or being casually fucked. Its far more likely than if people are lining up down the block to date you

Respondents who experienced rejection by family and
friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had
elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those
who experienced the following:
—
Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57% - This is volentary, and frankly something all of us will deal with - If I, say, joined the KKK, or something (not interested in them, but this is just an example) Then some of my family wouldn't speak to me, or would be weirder out. More importantly, you cannot FORCE someone to be comfortable around you.
—
Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school,
at work, and when accessing health care
•
Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54% - This is school, bullying is common as fuck. More importantly "any level" means absolutely nothing. Essentially someone being called a bundle of sticks (synonym, you know what Im talking about) would be harassment. And again, they CHOOSE to dress these ways, if they wanted to not be bullied? Don't do it. Also, I'm guessing this counts a few men trying to get into girls locker-rooms, and being denied
•
Experienced discrimination or harassment at
work: 50-59% - Discrimination is a very slippery term : I gaurentee you that many of these cases are the person looking incredibly awkward / creepy / gross when transitioning, and the company NOT wanting that as their image. I mean if THIS https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c9/f1/b9/c9f1b9b350fd26a8c45d9840eb3043ab.jpg Came in for work , and creeped litterally everyone out....kicking them out would be "discrimination". Keep this in mind. And even besides the level of dress, many transgenders can start to enter the uncanny valley, which as I'm sure you know, tends to creep out folks. And again, ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY to do so at work.
•
Doctor or health care provider refused to treat
them: 60% - Treat them fooooooooooooooor? Seriously this is so open ended. If its for general trans stuff, most doctors don't want to touch that due to liability, and ethical reasons. And many doctors simply aren't experienced in that.
•
Suffered physical or sexual violence: I just want to say, I love how physical and sexual violence are LUMPED TOGETHER. I bet "Just sexual violence" at work would be somewhere under 10%, if that. Very misleading
—
At work: 64-65% Really would like some assault reports here... like, you know, police reports? If you get assaulted, or ESPECIALLY raped at work, someone WILL get arrested or minimal fired.
—
At school (any level): 63-78% "At any level". So spitwads? being called a "faggot"? I mean....both are, in some interpretations violent.
—
Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law
enforcement
•
Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement
officers: 57-61% - I would be disrespected by law enforcement if I got arrested, said I was a girl, and wanted to bunk with girls.  Also, "disrespect" is vague as all hell.
•
Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law
enforcement officers: 60-70 - Again....putting them (sexual assault, regular violence) together. Please list how often a cop sexually assaults them, SEPERATE from physical violence. Also, this does not account for if it was deserved. If you get violent, you might get tazed, or beaten. I would too, and I'm "normal".
—
Experienced homelessness: 69% - As someone who has been homeless, I wonder exactly how these numbers are separated. Couch surfing, living in a vehicle, living in a shelter, and living in the woods are all "homeless" but some of them are more brutal than others. I could also argue, like everything else, their transgender status is chosen - Nobody to blame but themselves for any effects from it. Even so, I'm less sympathetic of people in shelters or couch surfing than a person living under a fucking TARP in the woods

Societal codes have damn good reasons. Women aren't put on the frontline for out and out war, because men are stronger, more durable, more able to handle intense stress, and women are needed to have kids. 1 man and 10 girls could repopulate, 10 men and 1 girl would just cause problems. And homosexuals do have a higher rate of issues. Higher drug,  alcohol use abusive relationships, mental illness, ect, so this isn't entirely a wrong idea.

You seemed to have entirely missed my question. I'm saying, for a TRANSGENDER (meaning, someone who HAS GONE THROUGH transition) Show me any who, as a mtf think men have it easier, or FTM, think being females are easier to be. They don't exist, I'm confident to say, mostly because if a trans thought they were getting the short end of the stick being a female, they WOULDN'T want to be a female, and WOULDN'T be trans.

Your experience is 1 of many. Also, if a person wants to do something, it doesn't mean its good for them. For one, it WILL elevate their rates for drug use, homelessness, being assaulted, and everything else ACCORDING TO YOU, So yes, I have a reason to believe NOT being homeless, suicidal, on drugs, mentally ill, and with no family would be BETTER. So yes, I care for people when I DISCOURAGE such risk

Blaire white has joked, in a few videos about becoming a trans because "she failed as man". Granted it wasn't very serious, but the fact he says this at all is rather telling. I will see if I can find the video. It was around 6 months ago IIRC. As for the porn star, the fact they ADMIT because they did it BECAUSE he thought women were better says everything. He wanted to be a strong, powerful woman, NOT a weak, broke, useless man, as she viewed it.

Subtopic or not, it covers the psychology behind WHY people want to change. Nobody says "Smoking crack makes me a failure, worthless, a piece of shit, so I want to smoke crack". Nobody. absolutely nobody. My point of these comparisons is the transgender have NOT worked out their inferiority complex, and are emotionally unstable because of it. They need to work out that the idea of "what a man and woman are" is incorrect, and they can be their born gender without being inferior. Cause at the end of the day, even with all the effort available, none with be indistinguishable from a woman. You can actually detect them via examining bone structure most of the time.

As for social pressures, ask yourself : What social pressure is there to be trans-phobic? Where? How? who? Who faces consequences for NOT being trans-phobic? (phobic is such a misterm btw,  this is like saying you are addictophobic if you don't like drug addicts. Is it because you are scared? No...you know there are problems)

The rates of mental illness for trans ARE higher, and the fact they cannot shrug off things anywhere near as good as normal people (If someone says im an asshole who should kill myself, it doesn't bother me more than a couple minutes, and I tell them to fuck off...thats...pretty much it) I've never seen a trans person be heckled and remain calm, or even be joked about and laugh about it : Because they are incredibly insecure.

Not saying im a victim, just stating that if I am litterally the only person against transgender on all of LUDEON right now : How is 1 person social pressure? Compared to everyone ELSE who DEMANDS acceptance. Seems social pressure goes the other way. And no, it is not bullying, and its not disinformation : Speculation on some points, perhaps, but not disinformation. I have not threatened, insulted, or anything else. One cannot say someone who disagrees is bullying, that isn't right, and is totalitarian censorship. IF you don't like my points, fine... Disprove me, provide evidence directly disproving me. You haven't done this, so my theory I will continue to stand by. Oh also, historical context holds little meaning on the now : Irish people were enslaved before, but I don't hold this up and expect to be treated better. LGBT have it pretty damn good as far as institutions respecting them.

Please explain how a passing MtF on the street, would get more harrassment than a man with a beard in a dress (this counts as transgender). I would think that passing, and being un-noticed, and accepted as a girl would REDUCE suicide rates, according to your theory. But somehow they are higher? Why?

Also, people don't just commit suicide when harassed, its generally a bunch of other INTERNAL feelings which combine to make this possible. EVERY ONE OF US was bullied at some point, but obviously all are still alive... So this shows maybe having a semi healthy mind helped. And again, just like dressing up in the wrong gendered clothing, suicide is a CHOICE.  Nobody does it BUT THEM. And again, I am the VAST MINORITY, for my view, so why are they committing suicide when main stream media accepts and protects them? Christians are called mentally ill too, do they commit suicide as much? No.

Also again, your findings show that they have an elevated rate of suicide, but has 0 proof that bullying is the cause, and NOT their screwed up mentality. Its a claim, nothing else, I have never seen a study showing that all of a transgenders persons problems "go away" when in an accepting environment. Its generally caused by being reminded in any way "you aren't a man / woman", which is true. They will NEVER have full functional genitals, they will NEVER get the chromosomes they want, they will NEVER get the opposite sex bone structure, they will NEVER be indistinguishable from the opposite sex. These facts are triggering, and depressing for them, but still facts. The fact they get so upset by them SHOWS they cannot handle reality. Its generally regarded that transgenderism is a lot like fight club : You don't talk about it to these people, you PRETEND its not there. Well, I don't do that, nothing is beyond talking about if its civil.

[Kegereneku]

Minor Edit : Noticed some typing/syntax error.

You refuse to recognize evidence that goes against your belief no matter how many we provide, and you won't question back your belief no matter how incorrect we demonstrate them to be. And it's clear you are not against twisting the truth to spread a baseless hate against LGBT (hoping nobody check your bluff).
By the end of your post I could hardly believe you were serious.

You are not being "oppressed by pro-LGBT" because you talk against. No, at worse you are simply being looked down because your arguments are wrong and your 'logic' divide us by 0.

Anyway let's start :

https://www.aei.org/publication/children-in-two-parent-families-do-better-in-life/

Not only it only talk of income, but it also has absolutely nothing to do with "gender roles" or offspring despite what you seemed to imply (it even explicitly rule it out in the third paragraph). It simply stating the obvious : Two parents have more money/time to raise their child than single. It could as well be a couple of Gay, Les or Trans it would stand the same. (btw, I actually have 2 cousins living with a remarried gay fathers, they are more than healthy)
Or maybe you were saying we should forbid divorce ? (that's sarcasm) Because that's the only point this link could support on the topic of family. There's a lot to say about how artificial and damaging the "gender role" dogma are, but we are already stretching the topic enough.

Oh and many transgendered DITCH their families because of it, which is incredibly irresponsible.

That one don't even connect with what you've been writing, it's like you are writing randomly.
If anything, transgender in the US are actually often the one being ostracized by bigoted family, no matter how irreproachable and mentally healthy they are.

As for your studies, first off I find it Ironic you bring up suicide, when I brought it up too : The idea of them committing suicide in droves because "Da bullies" is just asinine. I got the shit kicked out of me in middle school for being white. Then I committed suicide. Oh wait, No I didn't because I had thicker skin than that, and I had a semi healthy mindset.

There's so many fallacies here I can hardly count them. I wonder if I should even teach you something so basic.

Your personal experience cannot be considered equivalent to that of others, especially in a vastly different context. You only got the shit kicked out of you for being white ? (reminder that there is globally LESS racism against white people)
The LGBT persons who commit suicide usually do so because they were harassed physically, psychologically, insulted constantly, may had their stuffs stolen repeatedly, and for years and sometime couldn't count on justice because sometime law enforcement are ALSO bigot.

I gave you scientific paper, with hard peer-reviewed fact. Stop your denial it's ridiculous.

But honestly, lets break these down.... Keep in mind, being trans (NOT feeling gender dysphoria, this is entirely different) Is absolutely volentary : Nobody threatens to kill them if they DON'T make conscious efforts to be trans.

That's soooooo wrong. Nothing strike you as wrong in that ?
Do you realize you basically said "it's normal to threatens to kill someone because they WANT to do something (that yourself you object to)"  ?
Ever heard about the whole HUMAN RIGHTS things ?

Trans are not the one being in the wrong, they shouldn't have to refrain from going trans if they want to.
Aside, even people who were born asexual also face threat because of stupid bigot who believe that any trans are mentally instable (and even biblical daemon for fundamentalist).

commenting quote from http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Wow I didn't knew you where a professional researcher to be able to point out error made by a Ph.D. ... oh wait. No you clearly aren't. - You didn't even think of quoting and coloring your comment to facilitate reading
You really look desperate to ridiculize data that you can't understand right.

Let's take some example :

Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among
those who disclose to everyone that they are
transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and
among those that report others can tell always (42%)
or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender
or gender non-conforming even if they don't tell them. - So they are depressed about reality? This didn't even MENTION any form of bullying. Only conclusion is the reality that they ARE their born gender depresses them, and they are in DENIAL. I would like to hear any theory besides this : The fact most trans get insulted, and depressed, when you remind them what they are lends even more evidence to this. And if you ask for a citation, try going to a closeted trans and tell them they are trans : They WILL get upset.

No that's absolutely not how it is to be interpreted.
First : it PRECISELY MENTION BULLYING. The whole point of this section is to show that suicide attempt rate change if they tell others that they are trans (including when it would be impossible to tell if they didn't).
What it mean is that among all the specific transgenders who openly disclose that they are trans (plus subgroup), 50% suffer more suicide attempt. showing a direct correlation with the social implication of other knowing about them.

Respondents who are HIV-positive (51%) and
respondents with disabilities (55-65%) also have
elevated prevalence of suicide attempts.  In particular,
65 percent of those with a mental health condition
that substantially affects a major life activity reported
attempting suicide. - Yup, aids is higher if you are sexually promiscuous as hell, which most transgender people are, as they invite any sex they can get sometimes : Wanting approval of any sort before safety. If most people WILL NOT date you, you will jump at the opportunity for attention, even prostitution, or being casually fucked. Its far more likely than if people are lining up down the block to date you

First it seem you believe it mean "50% of trans have HIV", that's not it. The correct interpretation is that 51% (of the respondent who made suicide attempt and have HIV) and 56% of those who had disability, had elevated prevalence of suicide attempt (greater than over US value).
Second, you are just spouting baseless shit to smear them. Everything I ever heard about gay actually show them as MORE PRUDENT precisely because HIV exist and because they know they won't get dumped for wanting to play safe. (like do so many hetero dickshit if they meet girls who want to play safe)
You could hardly sound more homophobic than that.

Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57% - This is volentary, and frankly something all of us will deal with - If I, say, joined the KKK, or something (not interested in them, but this is just an example) Then some of my family wouldn't speak to me, or would be weirder out. More importantly, you cannot FORCE someone to be comfortable around you.

Just quoted this one to show that you are stupid enough to claim that being Trans is like joining a hate-group.
You can't force someone to be comfortable around you, but it doesn't mean you have to abandon your aspiration.
People who aren't comfortable with trans can become later if you explain them there's nothing wrong with Transexuality.

Experienced discrimination or harassment at
work: 50-59% - Discrimination is a very slippery term : I gaurentee you that many of these cases are the person looking incredibly awkward / creepy / gross when transitioning, and the company NOT wanting that as their image. I mean if THIS https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c9/f1/b9/c9f1b9b350fd26a8c45d9840eb3043ab.jpg Came in for work , and creeped litterally everyone out....kicking them out would be "discrimination". Keep this in mind. And even besides the level of dress, many transgenders can start to enter the uncanny valley, which as I'm sure you know, tends to creep out folks. And again, ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY to do so at work.

1) I've meet NORMAL person at work more creepy than "visible trans".
2) You are making a strawman here. Unlike what you imply, trans aren't morons who dress like your picture everywhere they go. You might have worked with transgender without knowing it.
3) You miss the point that this show Trans experience discrimination and harassment at work because of what they are.
Necessary reminder for you : "HUMAN RIGHT" mean that it is not legal to discriminate someone for no valid reasons, someone "being a trans" isn't a valid reason.

Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement
officers: 57-61% - I would be disrespected by law enforcement if I got arrested, said I was a girl, and wanted to bunk with girls.  Also, "disrespect" is vague as all hell.

1) You shouldn't be. You have the protected human right to be and do whatever you want.
A girl letting show that she is a lesbian shouldn't be disrespected by Policemens.
Same for a Trans telling he intend to have its gender changed on its ID-card, or that he is still interested in girls even after switching.
2) Some form of "Disrespect" can be more than clear : like a Policemen calling a black "nigger" or a Trans a "tranny/transvestite".

Societal codes have damn good reasons. Women aren't put on the frontline for out and out war, because men are stronger, more durable, more able to handle intense stress, and women are needed to have kids. 1 man and 10 girls could repopulate, 10 men and 1 girl would just cause problems. And homosexuals do have a higher rate of issues. Higher drug,  alcohol use abusive relationships, mental illness, ect, so this isn't entirely a wrong idea.

1) Women can now fight on the frontline in the US army. (Edit : and they do because they passed exactly the same entry tests)
2) They are as good as soldier (when not better) than men. Even when sexist prevented them from demonstrating it (google "WASP pilot")
3) Societal codes change with times for even greater reasons. Nowadays women have the rights to vote, to own and to be considered as an equal of men, for obvious reasons.

Then the rest of your rambling miss something very important : It's not ethic for you or society to decide what fundamental liberty another person have access too or what their "role" should be.
If a women don't want to have children, you have no right to force them.

You seemed to have entirely missed my question. I'm saying, for a TRANSGENDER (meaning, someone who HAS GONE THROUGH transition) Show me any who, as a mtf think men have it easier

Easy : said trans (MtF) in my family is perfectly aware that men "have it easier" on some aspect (ex :men don't have to deal with misogynist job employer for example) but still wanted to change for his own reason.
You seem to have brainwashed yourself into thinking that everything is black and white. Fifty Shade of grey is a very bad book but this is no excuse...

I'm confident to say, mostly because if a trans thought they were getting the short end of the stick being a female, they WOULDN'T want to be a female, and WOULDN'T be trans.

Except that is is false. You have just too many prejudice against Trans to understand it yet.
Aside, women shouldn't be getting a worse deal than men for being female. It's because of "gender role" bigot that gender equality progress too slowly.
If the world worked RIGHT a transgender wouldn't "lose" anything. He would just change whatever he want.

Blaire white has joked, in a few videos about becoming a trans because "she failed as man". Granted it wasn't very serious, but the fact he says this at all is rather telling. I will see if I can find the video. It was around 6 months ago IIRC. As for the porn star, the fact they ADMIT because they did it BECAUSE he thought women were better says everything. He wanted to be a strong, powerful woman, NOT a weak, broke, useless man, as she viewed it.

1) Careful, it's "she" all the way now.
2) Nope, I still have no reason to consider you a good judge or interpret.
3) It's actually telling nothing. He changed into She because he wanted too. We have no reason to judge.
As for the Porn star, it's only HIS reasons, that's doesn't mean it apply to everybody else and in practice it doesn't matter if they do.

Not saying im a victim, just stating that if I am litterally the only person against transgender on all of LUDEON right now : How is 1 person social pressure? Compared to everyone ELSE who DEMANDS acceptance.

Psychologist time :
Yes, you do feel the pressure of everybody else considering that you are wrong. But I can tell you that it's not much of a pressure. You aren't going to get your ass kicked, see your family ostracize you and be bullied for that sort of opinions (Your family didn't kicked you out right ?). You are not even going to be banned just for being a idiot. People simply stop caring about you and go back at playing Rimworld (like I should).

Transgender however usually suffer a much much worse form of peer pressure. They can have bigoted parents who can reject them, they have peer who may judge him as crazy (despite it being false), they'll fear to be bullied... and because they aren't hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet they can't just Log off be done with it.

Do you get the point or will you stay in denial ?

Oh also, historical context holds little meaning on the now : Irish people were enslaved before, but I don't hold this up and expect to be treated better. LGBT have it pretty damn good as far as institutions respecting them.

No Irish is enslaved or treated like dirt today, LGBT still are treated badly despite the effort of institutions.
Stop trying to pretend that LGBT bullying is a myth, you only come of as either too stupid to do the research or as a bully.

And no, it is not bullying, and its not disinformation : Speculation on some points, perhaps, but not disinformation. I have not threatened, insulted, or anything else. One cannot say someone who disagrees is bullying, that isn't right, and is totalitarian censorship

This is not disinformation if you genuinely don't know, but you clearly do insult and badmouth transgender several time in your post.
You are not the victim of a totalitarian "pro-LGBT" regime, you are just nowhere as right as you think you are.

Please explain how a passing MtF on the street, would get more harrassment than a man with a beard in a dress (this counts as transgender). I would think that passing, and being un-noticed, and accepted as a girl would REDUCE suicide rates, according to your theory. But somehow they are higher? Why?

This one look like a fair question.
Firstly bigot can be quite irrational which led to a lot of counter-intuitive case.
Because some 'passing' prefer telling they are trans (and close peer usually already know). If the 'passing' happened to meet a group of hateful person who know (or have been told) about her and can't stand the idea that SHE might live a normal female live, there's known case of "Heteronormative Crusader" being much more violent/hateful than with equivalent "bearded dress" because they only consider those as loonies not worth their time.
Then, because a MtF passing is essentially a Female, there's also been more known case of sexual harassment/rape because the Attacker/Bully know that he can both be a dick AND be sexist/pleasure himself (knowing that a Trans might not be as prepared against sexual harassment than a women-born would)

To drive the point further, the very surgery itself is seen as crossing a critical line. A bigoted god-fearing family will start hating their "lost son" much more AFTER the surgery that make him a 'passing'. Because before it they considered he could be "brought back".

Also again, your findings show that they have an elevated rate of suicide, but has 0 proof that bullying is the cause, and NOT their screwed up mentality.

Let's conclude with this...
I gave far more study and proof (if you can understand them of course), than you and your "interpretation".
I've also know of Trans and Gays in person. Free to you to not believe me on those, bu if sot don't ask me to believe you blindly. Especially since you seem to HATE transgender so much, we can legitimately wonder if you actually ever asked some their own reasons.


Ps : I warn you that I may not answer your next post. This one already took too much of my time.

[RickyMartini]

Hey just wanted to say that I started with my exams and that's why I didn't have time to answer here anymore, but mumblemumble, I thought that analysis of our original paper there would be interesting to do so I will be back to analyze it shortly after I finished.

[mumblemumble]

I look at the evidence, but none of it PROVES that its bullies, it SUGGESTS it. Want to know how to prove it? Show LGBT people across a 20 year period in an "accepting" area with suicide, drug use, mental illness, ect, ALL baseline and normal. Except this study doesn't exist, wonder why.

The problem with this theory is its misleading. All people get bullied. But drawing a correlation itself doesn't prove it : You must test, if REMOVING the suspected cause fixes it....you know, SCIENCE! Lets say I keep mixing baking soda, vinegar, and grape juice together to cook something (don't ask what) and when it bubbles I say "hummn this happens EVERY TIME I ADD GRAPE JUICE!!!". If this was realy the case, removing the grape juice would stop it entirely. Except it doesn't, VINEGAR and BAKING SODA are the culprits, and this can be proven.

However these studies ALWAYS just say "humn, lgbt people get bullied, therefor bullying and lack of the acceptance CAUSES EVERY PROBLEM UNDER THE SUN" with 0 proof. Not only 0 proof, but they state that they cannot test it, because its untestable because "homophobia" is too deep to remove. If this is the case, why try to remove if its impossible?

Didn't say I myself was actively oppressed but : I can be kicked out of schools, shops, buisnesses, fairs, arrested, and socially ostracised by MAINSTREAM society for my views. You compare this to family. Family is like 2-8 people, and I can find families who would shun you for eating cheese. Does this mean eating cheese is an oppressed act? No....because its a few people, compared to many, many more whom say the opposite. LGBT have laws, schools businesses, ect on their side, and they have.... ...a bunch of individuals against them. Very few of them having any institutions.

"Schulz points to an Economic Mobility Project analysis that shows that among children who start off in the bottom third of the income distribution, only 26 percent with divorced parents move up, compared to 42 percent born to unmarried mothers (who may marry later, of course) and 50 percent who grow up with two married parents."

So, even WITH lower income, they are more likely to be better off. Meaning a broke family who is married is more likely to raise a child who is successful. Yes, theres also human capitol, but human capitol tends to be better if married, as both parties are discouraged from leaving. I will also note, THEY LIST NO information on gay marriage, which I find very interesting, and the reasoning is "its still stigmatized". Sounds like an excuse to hide data. I suspect gay upbringings would be less effective on average : mostly because the role of mother and father is to teach the child what the ideal man, and ideal woman are. Ever heard the expression "I want to be just like daddy!". This cannot happen if daddy isn't around, because the boy has no male role-model. And with gay families, they are missing a male / female role-model respectively. Think about that word btw. Rolemodel. We all know rolemodels are good, but they are a MODEL.....for the ROLE...gender roles...Yeeeeaaaah.

I do not mean for trans who are under 20, I mean those OVER 40, with wife, kids, responsibilities, ect, and they say "know what? I want to be trans" and LEAVE THEIR WIFE AND KIDS. This happens, and is devastating to the family. The wife loses the husband, the kids lose the father, it basically amputates a large chunk of the family unit.

If I'm making fallacies, point them out, otherwise theres no reason to speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies Go ahead and look, I appreciate pointing any out, but unless you give specifics, I will assume you are full of it.

"White people have less racism" - citation needed. Keep in mind they genocide in parts of Africa, and Germany / France / Sweden they are currently being raped and attacked in droves. That and in college, whites are the only race called evil. Imagine the hate I would get if I said all BLACK people were evil. I would be lynched

Your papers, again, never ONCE say "And in this test, we put them into an accepting environment, AND EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM VANISHED" - This in and of itself is a texas sharpshooter fallacy, Theres nothing PROVING that bullying is the cause : All these papers say they are bullied : Ok I acknowlege that. So are fat kids, jews, blacks, whites, christians, virgins, ect.  But unless you show that removing the cause removes the problem then Its a theory, and nothing more.

When I break down the statistics, you ignore the uncomfortable fact : Transexuality is a choice. There's judging people for what they CHOOSE, and judging people by circumstances they cannot change. Judging a black person for being black is MUCH worse then judging a trans person for being trans, because the black person never sat down and said "know what? I want to be black", Where as the trans did. Same with tatoos, religion, opinions, ect : All these are choice, so should be open to scrutiny. Now if a guy was born with a deformed hand? Sure, leave him the fuck alone, he never chose that. But  thats ONLY because he never chose it. IF he amputated his hand voluntarily, or a girl blinded herself because she wanted to be blind, damn right I would judge them : as a massive idiot.

Trans can choose what they wan't and because they choose, I can choose to judge. Simple. Also trans ARE more mentally unstable, this has been established before. Much higher rate of mental illness and substance abuse. "Not all trans", sure, but enough where a person might look at a trans and say "this person is more likely to be unstable". Because statistically, this IS true.

In that 1, small tidbit of statistics it is NOT listed. Oh, actually and I just noticed, they never listed trans people who NOBODY CAN TELL. Hmmn, I wonder why? Surely some passing people exist....the suicide rate should be DRAMATICALLY lower, yes? except we cannot tell, as they didn't show this.

Woah, an actual honest, real criticism! Alright, I'll give you that, thanks. And raise you this http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/gender/transgender/ Point still valid. HIV rates are higher, mostly because they use risky sex behaviors, because they are desperate for attention

"You can't force someone to be comfortable around you, but it doesn't mean you have to abandon your aspiration." So by your logic, whining about family rejecting them is ok. I agree. Good 

1) if the person is creepy for a volentary reason, like panting or giggling like a creepy mother fucker, they would be fired too. If its just scars, or something that cannot be stopped, its less likely.
2)Not all trans are creepy, but many are, and make people uncomfortable. obviously the man in the picture is creepy, and he is trans, so SOME OF them are.
3) "You can't force someone to be comfortable around you, but it doesn't mean you have to abandon your aspiration.". Your words Not mine.

1) sOoooooo....If I'm visibly a guy.... chest hair....penis...beard...ect....and I say I'm trans.... You are saying its all good for me to shower with another girl, and be in the same room a girl is using a toilet?
2) Please cite where in the document it says SPECIFICALLY calling someone a tranny.

1)Can doesn't mean should. I can legally make a company which has very small print, saying its free normally, but then empties your bank account if you post your credit card info. I CAN do this, it IS legal (fine print) but it isn't right.
2)No women are not. Women are weaker, more emotional, and not built for the job. This is why we typically say men cannot hit women. If a woman hits a man, generally its not a big deal. If a man hits a woman, we take it serious, because we know the muscle difference, and the woman is not going to take a beating as well. If you really support this idea, lets arrange a boxing match, 10 guys of my choosing vs 10 girls of your choosing...see who gets the shit kicked out of them. Or see if the women even show up at all. And a pilot is much different than a front line grunt. A pilot is akin to a computer programmer. A frontline fighter is akin to a firefighter. On ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES physical performance, the other doesn't. You wouldn't get a computer tech to work as a firefighter.

Erm, except this logic goes against your logic of protection of LGBT. "If a person wants to not hire LGBT people, and lgbt people are discriminated against, you cannot force them to hire". Or are you suggesting this only applies to minorities? Oh also "fundamental rights" are just rights that the fed protect, nothing more. Don't say "they are fundamental" because they aren't , fundamental is just a title.

As I said, PLEASE show me 1 example of a trans lamenting that his transitioned gender gets shit everywhere, and he would be better off if they were their born gender again. I'm confident this doesn't exist. It also is interesting that trans also get special treatments, and so a trans "man" often, in certain places gets treated better than a normal man.

As said above, please provide any evidence I am wrong, besides just saying "you are wrong". Also, changing appearence also changes what we get in life. Its not just "how we look", but what we GET for how we look. Walking in for an interview in jeans and a grubby shirt, compared to slacks and a dress shirt get different results. Same for being seen as a man or woman. So most trans consider how they are treated, and often look forward to being TREATED different, BASED on looks. And if a man transitions to a "woman"? he DOES lose his man card, and all the benefits it brings. Same for an FTM losing her woman card. Man card earns respect, bigger voice, confidence of others in you, while a woman card gives protection, attention, desire and plenty of gifts by seekers. Gaining one, loses the other.

1)Bone structure, chromosones, and biological function say its a man. If blaires bones were found, it would be seen as a MANS bones. Unless you make him indistinguishable from a woman, its not a woman. Oh and blaire white himself says gender roles "not being a thing" is a crock of shit. So I'm supported there, by a transgender.
2)Ok, whats your theory on why this would be said?
3)Ok, if its only his reasons, then why aren't you acknowledging HIS reasons? Also, why are you saying HIS, are you some sort of BIGOT?

I actually have been pressured occasionally. I have been threatened, and swung at, I  HAVE been judged by family and kicked out, and while ludeon is rather amazing with its impartial mods, most other forums would kick me out for so much as asking questions.

Trans face pretty much the same stuff I faced for being the opposite...yet have laws protecting them, and laws AGAINST me for my opinion. Since, statistically they are more likely to have mental illness, calling them crazy is a dubious argument : Are they crazy? if so, is calling them crazy wrong? Think of it this way. If a skitzo homeless dude is viewed as crazy, should he be less crazy if hes trans?

Uhm, some places irish people are still discriminated against, as are black people, jews, atheists, Christians, ect. Plus, these surveys are VAUGE. They lump in assault, namecalling, desire to not be around them, ect. All of those together under the name of "bullying" which makes "bullying" sounds worse than it is. Imagine if I said that  "here is the amount of time I've been assaulted" and I say like 100 times a week, and under assaulted I include rape, being shot, stabbed beat up, robbed, and called an asshole... Granted, rape and being shot might be the ABSOLUTE minority (or not even happen in my case) but since I included them, its suggestive that I've been severely messed with and tortured, when in reality, maybe its 99 times a week I get called an asshole, and very rarely I get swung at. This would be misrepresentation, unless I specify how much EACH happens, NOT grouping them together. Also lay off the ad homin, and appeal to ridicule. Both are fallacies 

Criticism =/= insult. More importantly, if theres evidence to suggest it, its a theory. I might not know, but I have much evidence suggesting my theory, and have no evidence saying otherwise, or DISPROVING my theory. I have also listed what I would need to disprove me. And on say, college campuses, I kinda am, as I can get kicked out for anything  judging them even remotely, while I get looked at as an evil white guy because im white, in some places 

Interesting theory, but I find this  questionable. First off, show some data showing the harrassment rates for passing, and not passing trans. GAURENTEE the passing will be lower. Second, people doing the supposed raping  (wat) make no sense in the motivation. I've heard this same argument, for raping gay people straight. If a gay man already likes dick up his ass, what is putting a dick up his ass going to do to make him STOP liking dicks up the ass? No, these people are closet gays who use this as an excuse to get man ass, otherwise how would they be attracted to man enough to achieve erection enough to RAPE?
I know I couldn't rape a sack of potatoes....not because I feel bad for potatoes, but because potatoes are not sexy to me. This is even funnier when they say such people are christian. "Thou shall not lay with a man how one lays with a woman" - Translation : Don't put your dick in another dude. So these guys doing the raping would be the sinners, perhaps more so than the one taking it.

Oh so, people with surgery WILL ALWAYS BE SHUNNED.  So the man who runs this site http://www.sexchangeregret.com/ who had his penis cut off for SRS, then detransitioned, christians hate him because he went THROUGH with something?... I would also attribute most of the assaults on passing people to trans who ARE NOT transparent, and spring the suprise on people during sex - Which, will cause immense anger, and sense of betrayal, which CAN manifest itself with violence. Not saying this should happen, but can, and does.

Actually, no you didn't. You said transgenders who kill themselves are bullies, NOT that, if you remove the bullying, everything fixes itself. Same idea for everything else. You are assuming causation where theres no STRICT proof of it. I would argue suicide is far more likely from say, being molested as a child, abused, or having an inferiority complex than bullying BY ITSELF. Like I said, you get me a study with transgender people who are absolutely in an accepting environment, and the suicide, chem use, premiscuity, mental illness, and everything else is FIXED, and then I might believe you. Till then, no.

Also poet, while southpark is indeed parody, that is a very valid point : people CAN do this to get special treatment. And really all you have to do is say "I am transgender" and maybe wear a dress.

[FlayedOne]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I'd like to voice my opinion.

In my opinion it's all a matter of a freedom of choice. Anyone should be able to choose to change whatever they want in their body - it's their body and their life - they can do with it what they want to.

Having said that, I'm also a strong opponent to any laws trying to regulate against the so called 'discrimination' in any voluntary interactions. First of all, they become a kind of 'go to' excuse / accusation for any rejection that happens to those 'protected minorities' (in my opinion they should be called state-privileged minorities instead) and so the said minorities lack the incentives to get better. And secondly, but more importantly IMO, it's simply immoral to force others to act a certain way to enforce well being of the minority! If some guy saved a million bucks, starts an enterprise and doesn't want to hire transsexual people based on his own preference it's his prerogative - it's his own money! If such hire would have made his enterprise less efficient - then this was a right choice and the transsexual person will have an incentive to become better (make better impression, become a better employee), if it would have made it more efficient - it's the owners loss and some other company will hire this transsexual person and will be better off, also making general opinion about transsexual people better.

In other words - I believe such laws are not only immoral, but also harmful to everyone in the long run.

And when it comes to the bathroom argument - IMO they are split by sexual organs and not some "perceived sexual/social role". If you have a penis - go to the men's room, if you have a vagina - go to the women's room. If you underwent some "sex change operation" IMO you have neither, so go somewhere else, or wherever you want provided only a single person can enter at once. Majority does not have any duty to provide for every "wish" that minorities have.

[Listen1]

FlayedOne, this is not one of the points in here.

The biggest problem to manage is the "Fake Transgenders" going into the opposite sex bathroom and comitting harassment and rape. Right now you can be a Fake Transgender just by saying that you are a Transgender or dressing up as the opposite sex.

Since there is no "Sign" saying that you are a transgender, people may take advantage of it and commit crimes. But, independent of the transgenderism, a crime is a crime, should be treated as such.

[FlayedOne]

FlayedOne, this is not one of the points in here.

The biggest problem to manage is the "Fake Transgenders" going into the opposite sex bathroom and comitting harassment and rape. Right now you can be a Fake Transgender just by saying that you are a Transgender or dressing up as the opposite sex.

Since there is no "Sign" saying that you are a transgender, people may take advantage of it and commit crimes. But, independent of the transgenderism, a crime is a crime, should be treated as such.

I believe this is solved by my take on the bathrooms dilemma, which is why I didn't make any specific comments on it, or is there some specific situation I didn't notice?

I 100% agree on the crime part of course.

[mumblemumble]

By this logic rock,  try letting 10 random dudes in the ghetto hold your wallet while you tie your shoe.  I mean,  theft is a crime,  right? So there's no reason to be careful. This is entirely the problem. Rape,  murder,  robbery,  theft,  ect,  are ALL illegal,  But we ALL take steps to avoid them. If you disagree,  please for thit next week : keep everything unlocked,  including your front door -  let a stranger hold your wallet while you tie your shoes -  give 10 random people your address,  preferably those you view as enemies. -  walk around at night in the most shady area you have near.  Do all these,  and get back to me on the results,  because obviously crime means it can't happen right? And nothing can be done to make it less likely, right? So doing these things doesn't matter, right? And a sex offender known for raping old ladies dressing as a woman and following your mother in the bathroom isn't the least bit concerning. right?

Flayed,  you do raise a valid point,  and this is a theme of society in general : people think they don't have to become better,  or grow.  This is why i think the triggering stuff is bs.  Not because I've never had triggers (i have)  but because people need to overcome them,  or else it WILL cripple them FOR LIFE. anxiety surrounding sex used to cripple me when younger,  to the point an exposed girl would give me a sense of panic,  and i would quite literally flea it. Extremely debilitating,  but i worked past it,  and I'm proud to say i went to a rave (not far from a strip club tbh)  and despite the twerking,  grinding,  borderline nudity,  i was happy to see i remained calm,  and in control of my emotions completely. If people did this more,  people would be better  off.

On a side note,  don't care for raves,  but I'm also a teetotaler for the most part.  I'm also a sexual conservative (don't want screw girls I'm not dating,  don't want to see a girl naked unless we are dating)  so since most people are high / drunk there,  or there to grind on girls,  this holds little interest in me.

Wow,  i think this is my shortest post in a while.

[Kegereneku]

One thing is sure Mumble... I stopped giving you the benefit of the doubt about it. You clearly are trying to smear trans while advocating views that were already considered against Human Rights in the 70s. You just don't realize how ...uneducated you sound.
I did say before that you couldn't be banned for being stupid, but smearing and spreading lies are crimes so I'm not surprised you get bashed.

I wouldn't even worry about you accidentally convincing someone, I was originally checking if you were willing to change your opinion. But since it's don't actually seem to be the case I don't care any more about continuing to point out your personal prejudice, fallacious double standard, moving goalpost, parody of science, misunderstanding of fallacy and all around mumbling.
Furthermore, discussing with you is like discussing the most ethic application of basic human right to someone who don't believe everybody should have human right. (that's been demonstrated by earlier post. But again, I bet you'll pretend I didn't)

So to give you one last feedback about your writing style :
Let's just say that IMHO you can usually replace around 40 lines per 40 lines of text with formulation like "I believe children should be raised following old-school roles model" and lose absolutely nothing in the meaning, because the concept of "role model" and the subtext of "old-school" already include the meaning of your 40 others lines. Same apply for 90% of yours last post.

Short :
I'm no more interested in discussing with you (like that) and you would gain to be concise.

And when it comes to the bathroom argument - IMO they are split by sexual organs and not some "perceived sexual/social role". If you have a penis - go to the men's room, if you have a vagina - go to the women's room. If you underwent some "sex change operation" IMO you have neither, so go somewhere else, or wherever you want provided only a single person can enter at once. Majority does not have any duty to provide for every "wish" that minorities have.

IMO, even if it started different nowadays gendered-bathroom is only a luxury based appearance because, (1) both gender can and do use the same "Throne of Power" in unisex room, (2) Nobody can, in fact, see said sexual organs, socially speaking we associate gender base on everything BUT sexual organs.

FlayedOne, this is not one of the points in here.

The biggest problem to manage is the "Fake Transgenders" going into the opposite sex bathroom and comitting harassment and rape. Right now you can be a Fake Transgender just by saying that you are a Transgender or dressing up as the opposite sex.

Since there is no "Sign" saying that you are a transgender, people may take advantage of it and commit crimes. But, independent of the transgenderism, a crime is a crime, should be treated as such.

I consider the example a non-issue precisely for the reasons you have pointed out.
Including : Anybody is innocent until proven otherwise, there is no reason to say "you are Trans so we will preemptively apply known-sex-criminal rules to you", you either committed a crime or you never.

Lesbian use women bathroom too and we don't preemptively accuse them of voyeurism for their bias do we ?
And when a girl (in a changing room) take a nude photo of another girl to mock her on Snapchat (this one is a real recent news), the crime stay the same and we won't forbid smartphone to prevent it.

To me there WASN'T a problem in the first place and the North-Carolina religious pundit knew it. They didn't wanted a rules to prevent crimes (because letting trans chose didn't change the crime-rate), they just wanted a rule that created a crime of being Trans in a very religious country.

Edit : I've been doing some rewording before someone answer, + typo fix

[mumblemumble]

If you would like to quote specific LIES, be my guest, otherwise I will disregard you if you just say I'm lying. I've quoted many studies, many documents, all supporting my argument. Calling them lies is inaccurate : At most you could call them theories you do not support, which nothing disproves yet

Please also point out fallacious double standards : If I've done so I wish to correct this immediately. But unless you give a specific, nothing can be done.

Both men and women use the bathroom yes, but both have different hardware. Whens the last time you heard a girl pee in a urinal? Oh wait, no penis to aim the urine on demand. Also, we CAN see sex, just many don't ALLOW it, because its a little personal to be fiddling someones junk. So we can, I can tell if you wore a dress, make up, ect if you were a man by your junk (and by bone structure, proportions of the hands, head / shoulders, muscle mass, ect) but these are a bit harder than just looking at someones clothes. Also, this problem was CREATED by transgender folks, it wouldn't exist, if not for them.

Problem isn't innocence, its if something LOOKS like it is potentially risky. For instance, walking around at 3 am : technically not a crime, but nothing good generally happens that late. So cops, neighbors, ect, WILL be wary of you, especially if you look out of place. A dude with facial hair, penis, ect will also look out of place, people will be skeptical because it LOOKS like it could be something very bad. Now, we cannot ban walking at 3 am (shit happens) but banning a dude with a penis going in a girls room is fine, as there's nothing there but an inconvenience to 1 person

Did you know lesbians are at higher risk for sex crimes against women than straight women? Same for domestic abuse, violence, ect. So statistically speaking, maybe we should have precautions? Also a smartphone, just like a gun, can do NOTHING without a user. Certain users are more dangerous than others.

And daily reminder, the lgbt bathroom law essentially let literally anyone go literally any bathroom, if they said the 3 magic words "I am trans". If you do not understand the problem of a sex offender who raped and killed multiple girls going in after a girl, then I can't help you.

Oh, also edit your posts all you want, I will still call out the BS which will be leftover.