Reloading

[BattleFate]

Hey everyone,

As everyone knows by now, sometimes it's hard to determine if a topic or idea has already been suggested. I keep an eye on the forums and did a search for this with no real results, but that doesn't mean all that much. If this has already been suggested (in this form, not a similar suggestion), then I apologize. But I would like feedback on it anyways.

My idea came from thinking about reloading in the game. We of course want to avoid getting game mechanics which are too cumbersome or involve too much micromanagement. That being say I think it would not suit Rimworld to have limited ammunition. Having to worry for each colonist if you have the ammo, then get them to make/buy the ammo... load the weapon, etc. I imagine this will be too much of a distraction and not a fun aspect to the game.

However, that made me think... Is there a way to implement different amounts of ammunition for different weapons without actually having limited ammo.

CLIPS!

Each gun would have a clip, allowing that many shots to be fired without a 'reload delay.' The re-fire time would vary based on the gun and the colonists shooting skill. So a revolver would hold 6 bullets and re-fire at say one per second, whereas a pistol would hold 9 bullets and refire once every half second. Once the 'clip' was empty, then the colonist would have to take time to reload a new clip (clips would be unlimited, so would not require inventory space or be discarded to the ground. They just appear and disappear as necessary.) Reloading would take longer than re-firing... say 10 seconds for the revolver, or 5 for the pistol. That too would be affected by the weapon type (individual bullets vs actual clips) and the colonists shooting skill.

That then made me wonder... What about automatic weapons? Should they automatically burst? Isn't that something that people learn to do with skill, rather than it being a weapon property (my understanding is that some weapons have a burst capability, but those are also capable of full auto, and someone without knowledge would likely forget to change it to burst, and those weapons with full-auto as the only option would require a skilled user to know how to fire it in bursts instead).

So full-auto weapons like the uzi, the M16, etc would require a check against the skill of the wielder. A colonist with a shooting skill of 1-5 would most likely just 'spray and pray.' He wouldn't know to shoot in bursts. So he would fire in full auto until his clip was empty, and then would take time to reload. This might be an advantage if you wanted to throw a wall of bullets at the raiders.s

But as a colonist would grow in skill, they would learn to use bursts (at increased accuracy, and also helping to conserve ammo before having to load a new clip in). Say skill 6-10 would fire in half-clip bursts... 11-15 would fire in 5 bullet ones, and in 16-20 would fire in 3 bullet ones (at an obviously very high hit chance).

Colonists would automatically load a fresh clip in when they do not see an immediate threat they can focus on.

Or, I suppose each colonist could have a firing strategy set when they are selected (available options would be based on the above burst:level breakdown). So you could have your level 20 shooter still spray and pray, just at a much higher chance to hit (but not as his as if he was choosing the 3-bullet burst).

Thoughts?

[Evul]

The weapon code at the moment look like this:

Code Select Expand

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<Buildings>


<ThingDefinition Name="GunBase" Abstract="True">
<category>Item</category>
<eType>Equipment</eType>
<thingClass>Equipment</thingClass>
<label>Gun</label>
<equipmentType>Primary</equipmentType>
<isGun>True</isGun>
<pathCost>10</pathCost>
<useStandardHealth>True</useStandardHealth>
<selectable>True</selectable>
<maxHealth>100</maxHealth>
<altitudeLayer>Item</altitudeLayer>
<alwaysHaulable>True</alwaysHaulable>
<tickerType>Never</tickerType>
<storeCategories>
<Item>Weapons</Item>
</storeCategories>
<compSetupList>
<Item>Forbiddable</Item>
</compSetupList>
</ThingDefinition>

<ThingDefinition Name="BulletBase" Abstract="True">
<category>Projectile</category>
<tickerType>Normal</tickerType>
<altitudeLayer>Projectile</altitudeLayer>
<thingClass>Bullet</thingClass>
<label>Bullet</label>
<useStandardHealth>False</useStandardHealth>
<neverMultiSelect>True</neverMultiSelect>
<baseMaterialType>Transparent</baseMaterialType>
</ThingDefinition>

<!-- ============================================================== -->

<ThingDefinition ParentName="BulletBase">
<defName>Bullet_Pistol</defName>
<label>Pistol bullet</label>
<texturePath>Things/Projectile/Bullet_Small</texturePath>
<projectile>
<impactWorld>True</impactWorld>
<damageType>Bullet</damageType>
<DamageAmountBase>10</DamageAmountBase>
<Speed>55</Speed>
</projectile>
</ThingDefinition>


<ThingDefinition ParentName="GunBase">
<defName>Gun_Pistol</defName>
<label>Pistol</label>
<description>Ancient pattern automatic pistol. Weak and short range, but quick.</description>
<texturePath>Things/Item/Equipment/Pistol</texturePath>
<interactSound>InteractPistol</interactSound>
<purchasable>True</purchasable>
<basePrice>60</basePrice>
<verb>
<verbClass>Verb_Shoot</verbClass>
<cooldownTicks>30</cooldownTicks>
<hasStandardCommand>True</hasStandardCommand>
<canMiss>True</canMiss>
<projectileDef>Bullet_Pistol</projectileDef>
<accuracy>4</accuracy>
<warmupTicks>68</warmupTicks>
<range>24</range>
<fireSound>ShotPistol</fireSound>
<targetParams>
<canTargetPawns>True</canTargetPawns>
<canTargetBuildings>True</canTargetBuildings>
<worldObjectTargetsMustBeAutoAttackable>True</worldObjectTargetsMustBeAutoAttackable>
</targetParams>
</verb>
</ThingDefinition>

<!-- ============================================================== -->

</Buildings>

It defines ammo and a weapon so i think ammo would be possible.
I like the idea for actually having limited ammo, cause colonists have a way to carry items and there are resources defined as rockets and shells why not also have limited ammo.

I think the colonist if ammo exist always should try the have there ammo inventory full. Similar to the food, they go and get it when needed.

[BattleFate]

The weapon code at the moment look like this:

Code Select Expand

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<Buildings>


<ThingDefinition Name="GunBase" Abstract="True">
<category>Item</category>
<eType>Equipment</eType>
<thingClass>Equipment</thingClass>
<label>Gun</label>
<equipmentType>Primary</equipmentType>
<isGun>True</isGun>
<pathCost>10</pathCost>
<useStandardHealth>True</useStandardHealth>
<selectable>True</selectable>
<maxHealth>100</maxHealth>
<altitudeLayer>Item</altitudeLayer>
<alwaysHaulable>True</alwaysHaulable>
<tickerType>Never</tickerType>
<storeCategories>
<Item>Weapons</Item>
</storeCategories>
<compSetupList>
<Item>Forbiddable</Item>
</compSetupList>
</ThingDefinition>

<ThingDefinition Name="BulletBase" Abstract="True">
<category>Projectile</category>
<tickerType>Normal</tickerType>
<altitudeLayer>Projectile</altitudeLayer>
<thingClass>Bullet</thingClass>
<label>Bullet</label>
<useStandardHealth>False</useStandardHealth>
<neverMultiSelect>True</neverMultiSelect>
<baseMaterialType>Transparent</baseMaterialType>
</ThingDefinition>

<!-- ============================================================== -->

<ThingDefinition ParentName="BulletBase">
<defName>Bullet_Pistol</defName>
<label>Pistol bullet</label>
<texturePath>Things/Projectile/Bullet_Small</texturePath>
<projectile>
<impactWorld>True</impactWorld>
<damageType>Bullet</damageType>
<DamageAmountBase>10</DamageAmountBase>
<Speed>55</Speed>
</projectile>
</ThingDefinition>


<ThingDefinition ParentName="GunBase">
<defName>Gun_Pistol</defName>
<label>Pistol</label>
<description>Ancient pattern automatic pistol. Weak and short range, but quick.</description>
<texturePath>Things/Item/Equipment/Pistol</texturePath>
<interactSound>InteractPistol</interactSound>
<purchasable>True</purchasable>
<basePrice>60</basePrice>
<verb>
<verbClass>Verb_Shoot</verbClass>
<cooldownTicks>30</cooldownTicks>
<hasStandardCommand>True</hasStandardCommand>
<canMiss>True</canMiss>
<projectileDef>Bullet_Pistol</projectileDef>
<accuracy>4</accuracy>
<warmupTicks>68</warmupTicks>
<range>24</range>
<fireSound>ShotPistol</fireSound>
<targetParams>
<canTargetPawns>True</canTargetPawns>
<canTargetBuildings>True</canTargetBuildings>
<worldObjectTargetsMustBeAutoAttackable>True</worldObjectTargetsMustBeAutoAttackable>
</targetParams>
</verb>
</ThingDefinition>

<!-- ============================================================== -->

</Buildings>

It defines ammo and a weapon so i think ammo would be possible.
I like the idea for actually having limited ammo, cause colonists have a way to carry items and there are resources defined as rockets and shells why not also have limited ammo.

I think the colonist if ammo exist always should try the have there ammo inventory full. Similar to the food, they go and get it when needed.

True. I suppose that's a way to do it. I am worried about it turning into a headache to manage though. What do you think about the clips idea? It's like an ammo simulator, and also gives a new way of differentiating one gun from another (one might have a clip of 20, and another of 30).

[Tynan]

Just a quick note; it doesn't define ammo per se, it defines bullets, which are the things that fly through the air to kill you, not the things you carry around to put in your gun.

I would like to deepen the shooting timing mechanics. You'd get things like controlled bursts from skilled shooter, wild sprays from amateurs, varying load times, and so on. It just hasn't been essential enough to do yet.

[Evul]

Just a quick note; it doesn't define ammo per se, it defines bullets, which are the things that fly through the air to kill you, not the things you carry around to put in your gun.

Ah! Then i know xD

[BattleFate]

Just a quick note; it doesn't define ammo per se, it defines bullets, which are the things that fly through the air to kill you, not the things you carry around to put in your gun.

I would like to deepen the shooting timing mechanics. You'd get things like controlled bursts from skilled shooter, wild sprays from amateurs, varying load times, and so on. It just hasn't been essential enough to do yet.

Cool, that's like almost exactly one prospect of what I was proposing above. I think with clips and clip sizes it could integrate a whole new level of gun management without getting too bogged down on the details. Particularly if you consider larger burst sizes are more of an advantage if there's no limit on ammo. But implementing a clip would mean that smaller, more accurate bursts would be better as it would take longer before the colonist would initiate the tome consuming reload. But hey, you're the genius here.

[colonistPally]

I hate to be "that guy" but if we're going to talk about ammo, loading, reloading, etc. let's try to get our terminology right.

* A clip holds bullets, you set the clip in the rifle, load the bullets into an internal magazine and then the clip is removed leaving the ammo to use as needed.
* A magazine holds bullets, attaches to the rifle or pistol and the ammunition is used as-needed.

If the oldest rifle in RimWorld (Lee-Enfield) appears to be based off an M1 Garand which used clips as it had an internal magazine, but Tynan notes even though it is the oldest rifle on RimWorld, it does in fact use 5 round external magazines. The rest seem relatively modern and all use magazines... Modern rifle, magazine. Shotgun, internal magazine tube.

Using "clips" interchangeably like that really sends a lot of wrong signals... I escorted myself off the island.  bye 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoSNHe413rY

[Tynan]

Off the island!!

And the oldest gun is a Lee-Enfield, which, I believe, uses 5 round mags So the game has no clips at all.

[BattleFate]

Sorry, my bad. I assumed Clip and Magazine was interchangeable based on how I'd heard them used in the past. I didn't know there was a difference.

I suppose either one works with the mechanic I proposed above...

[colonistPally]

Sorry, my bad. I assumed Clip and Magazine was interchangeable based on how I'd heard them used in the past. I didn't know there was a difference.

I suppose either one works with the mechanic I proposed above...

*a message in a bottle floats by, someone thankfully picked it up*

That is the media and video game's situation. I did an extensive blog page about it once. The amount of games interchangeably using the two words are staggering. I won't risk offending the diverse group here with explaining how the media / video games are perpetuating negative stereotypes and misinformation so we'll leave it at that.

Thanks for clearing that up about the Lee-Enfield, Tynan! I went ahead and edited my post because I think it's really cool that you put all that work into the firearms. All of my colonists have M-24's and it's just an amazing group I've got. 

I saw myself off the island. I'm with my own people now. Hope you guys learned something and that it was relatively positive. Just tryin to spread the word'n stuff. Take care. 

[Untrustedlife]

Sorry, my bad. I assumed Clip and Magazine was interchangeable based on how I'd heard them used in the past. I didn't know there was a difference.

I suppose either one works with the mechanic I proposed above...

*a message in a bottle floats by, someone thankfully picked it up*

That is the media and video game's situation. I did an extensive blog page about it once. The amount of games interchangeably using the two words are staggering. I won't risk offending the diverse group here with explaining how the media / video games are perpetuating negative stereotypes and misinformation so we'll leave it at that.

Thanks for clearing that up about the Lee-Enfield, Tynan! I went ahead and edited my post because I think it's really cool that you put all that work into the firearms. All of my colonists have M-24's and it's just an amazing group I've got. 

I saw myself off the island. I'm with my own people now. Hope you guys learned something and that it was relatively positive. Just tryin to spread the word'n stuff. Take care. 

I respect you for that appeal to tech level.