Prostitution

[mumblemumble]

I sure so trust a website called "Catholic Education" to have a balanced view on sex work

If you want to reject the entirety of the articles based on this, without reading, that is on you and makes you look ignorant.

people like sex and people like money, so the question is : where does the trauma actually come from?

i think the problem isn't about sex or money, i think it's mostly about the abuse (both physical and psychological from johns/pimps/whatever) as well as the stigma they get from society, which is what's creating the trauma.

abuse isn't even isolated to sex either. the world is just filled with so many abusive people. heck, even in a normal convo you can get abused by trolls or whatever.

First argument is helplessly flawed. People like sex with CERTAIN places, in CERTAIN times, with CERTAIN people. If some dude walked up, right now, and gave you 100 $ to screw you like a rag doll, rough like you were disposable, would you do it? Because, you know, we ALL like sex and cash, says you... Not trying to be a jerk, but just demonstrating, this doesn't work in reality, sex has massive effects, not always good, and not always desired. Often we don't want "any" sex but the "right" sex, and prostitutes often don't get the "right" sex, but choose to do the "right" sex for the CUSTOMER, not themselves. Many girls get addicted to the money, but get damaged, and depressed from the work as the studies indicate. And MANY girls are trafficked. 3 questions need to be asked : What do you consider abuse, and how far reaching is it, how far could you compromise on sex, and still enjoy it, and how far would a john in a buyers MARKET be willing to compromise? If your needs, and limits are outside of the johns WANTS, well, you now have no customer. So YOU will need to compromise, either on price, what you will do, or SOMETHING to be COMPETITIVE. If not, nobody will buy you if you must be gentle, cannot be rough, cannot say names, ect, because suzie down the street will do all that at the same price. You won't be worth the time, and won't get paid.

You mentioning "its abuse, not sex" is partially right, and only partially...its like saying booze is bad because heath effects over the years, lapses in judgement, liver failure, lack of coordination, alcoholism, hangover, drunk driving, drunk fights, ect, but besides that drinking is ok... Well, except for its pretty much impossible to have drinking WITHOUT these things popping up somewhere, and frequent. Same with prostitution, even legalizing it encourages trafficking, and then abuses are strangely harder to combat, since then its legal, and it can be coerced to say a girl was paid for xyz.

Normal people don't get seriously emotionally damaged by "trolls", unless there are other insecurities. At least not trolls as in someone calling someone  a terrible name or disagreeing, stuff like hacking, destroying accounts ect can cause stress, but this is very different. A woman's body being turned public for anyone with the money to use any way they want, THAT is damaging, most girls only want to give it to a special guy, but a girl being pushed into giving it to anyone who pays has enormous effects on the psyche.

Furthermore, it sounds like you haven't met many IRL whores, they generally try to make an outwardly happy appearance, but aren't all that happy internally. Usually they have bipolar, depression, substance abuse, and are not used to impartial, unconditional nice treatment of them : a few girls I've met absolutely love me, and greet me warmly because I'm very nice and polite to them and never request anything, and they have almost forgotten what its like to have people being nice JUST for being nice, and accept them as a woman and not a whore, or party girl.

[keylocke]

First argument is helplessly flawed. People like sex with CERTAIN places, in CERTAIN times, with CERTAIN people. If some dude walked up, right now, and gave you 100 $ to screw you like a rag doll, rough like you were disposable, would you do it?

true. you actually stated my main point. paraphrasing myself : where does the trauma actually come from? and then yadayada.. <--- again you just illustrated my point.

what you seem to be NOT getting is that the trauma does not come from the sex or the money.
it comes from the abuse.. just like ANY other job that has to deal with abusive bosses or abusive customers.

sure being forced to have sex with people you don't like is gonna be traumatic. keyword here is "forced". and then the next keywords would be the "lack of options" or "they need to be X to become competitive with other competition", etc..

gist is : if sexing up strangers isn't your cup of tea, then prostitution isn't a profession you should choose (it's an incompatible profession for you and it will become traumatic). but if the person is being FORCED into prostitution, then the problem isn't prostitution itself.. the problem is slavery or extreme poverty. compared to some pornstars or those high-class prostitutes who are actually enjoying their profession voluntarily.

and the reason why i have to point that out is coz to arrive at the best solution, you need to find the actual cause of the problem. so just like how ALL employees have rights to a good working environment, the same thing applies to prostitutes or any other profession.

so people being forced into prostitution is bad. but people who actually chose that profession out of their own volition should be given a good working environment so that they can continue their profession without trauma and getting stigmatized by society.

coz the discrimination and the stigma given by society are probably more traumatic than the act of prostitution itself.

[mumblemumble]

Good job ignoring all but one point. care to address supply and demand, or the fact that where its legal, most girls are trafficked?

The main point I made which you ignored (surprise) is that if your limits and rules are MORE than another person, the john WILL NOT pick you. So abuse is frankly encouraged as it always is a buyers market. If a person wont do anal, sex without condoms, kissing, or other stuff, nobody whos shopping around will buy them if that is what they are looking for, thus they are shut out of the market. This then presents a conflict : Are they wanting to uphold their personal limits, or make money? in this context both cannot exist, one must be compromised. And this is often extremely common.

Also, on the concept of force : its kinda misunderstood. Very little is "FORCED". short of holding someone down and physically forcing something, force doesn't happen much, but there is always plenty of incentives NOT to do something, or to do something. For instance, none of us are FORCED not to steal, rape, murder, or abuse people, this said we have jails, vigilantes, police, and societal disapproval as an incentive NOT to do so. A prostitute at the same time isn't FORCED to agree with anal for 300$, but if the john says "I wont buy if theres no anal", theres an incentive to agree, to make the sale. And once behind closed doors, it gets even MORE problematic. What if she agrees, but is in such excruciating pain that she demands to stop? But shes already accepting money? what happens then? refund, despite the pain and anguish? Will the guy just rape her because he paid for it (very common)? If its illegal, obviously she cannot do anything, being a weaker woman, and if legal, the law can side with the MAN. "Well miss, you say you were raped, but you were also paid 300 for anal, which you refused. Do you realize this is fraud? Either do the job, or give a refund".

Its not as simple as you say. You REALLY need to think about the economics, law, and other issues. And this isn't even touching on trafficking, which is MORE common when legal.

All of these situations make it in general more traumatic than any amount of casual sex would.

I think you should look at it this way, if you needed to make rent, and that guy, or guys like that were the only clients you could choose AT THAT TIME, would you become homeless, or submit to it? What would be your plan?

[mulholland]

Well, let's get back on topic: I would download. It is timeless.

[sadpickle]

I want to go to a party where mumblemumble is holding court sometime 

The key issue here is choice, as keylocke pointed out:

but if the person is being FORCED into prostitution, then the problem isn't prostitution itself.. the problem is slavery or extreme poverty.

As George Carlin put it (paraphrasing), why should it be criminal to pay for that which is otherwise freely given?

There are people who voluntarily get into the sex trade (they like to call themselves "sex workers" now). It's not hard to see why. At no time in human history have humans been more free of disease, with a surplus of wealth to spend on luxuries, and with enough free time with their basic survival concerns met that they can worry about not getting enough sheet time. It's a highly lucrative business in most urban areas, with very competitive rates. Like water, it's demand is ubiquitous and constant (barring disasters and inclement weather).

However. It's de-facto illegal where I live, and in most of the world. It's criminal to solicit AND to offer. This drives the sex trade into the black market, in which the rules of civilized society are thrown out the window... when you outlaw something, you make outlaws. And outlaws have no legal recourse. Prostitutes cannot go to the police if they are raped, unless they want to risk felony prosecution. How perverse is that: a woman who is raped cannot go to the police if she's a sex worker because she too is complicit in a crime. Sex workers are obviously at greater risk of STDs and other related medical conditions. There's also the matter of abusive johns, who are essentially parasites and can only thrive BECAUSE there is a black market in sex trade.

I humbly petition, that if you provide a safe and legal outlet for sex workers to market and solicit their trade, then many of the problems can be solved automatically. Sex workers have legal recourse if they are raped or abused. Johns can no longer operate (they manipulate by threat of and actual physical force, which is obviously already illegal in the developed world.) Sex workers can find an employer that gives them access to health facilities. Using the USA as an example, operating brothels have incredibly stellar health records, with mandatory testing monthly and in some cases, weekly.

All that being said, I don't think it's an interesting game mechanic. The only point would be to generate wealth for the colony, or a mood buff for colonists who aren't so romantically successful. Since personal money isn't a thing I can't see how either would correlate to prostitution per se.

[mumblemumble]

Prostitution simply isn't that simple, of having consensual, pressure free sex, and money being involved. See, whenever anyone PAYS MONEY, the person paid is OBLIGATED to give service and  satisfy to the best of their ability. In a way, its sort of temporary, money driven slavery : if I pay you money say, to make me dinner, you are FORCED to then make me dinner to the best of your ability, and if you get extremely picky on clients, well you will go broke. Granted you can refuse to accept money, but if you accept, you are then bound.

Legal areas STILL have issues of prostitutes facing depression, being abused, suffering PTSD in similar rates. And even if you disagree, tell me, what would legally happen to a girl who agreed to xyz, couldn't handle it, then backed out? Refund? girl forced to continue? Guy forced to have his money go down the toilet? I mean, instinctually we wish to help the girl as any redblooded man, but it must also be approached as a BUSINESS, as its what they present it as. And in that light, its a clear case of "business did not render services paid for" Which is criminal. If you own a restaurant, and let me pay for dinner, but theres a power outage and you cannot make dinner, theres several courses of action. First, you can try to improvise and make dinner to best possible quality. Second, you could give a refund, EVEN IF I ate the complimentary bread, you are forced to just deal with it. Third, and least likely, apply some sort of a rain check, or PERSONAL AGREEMENT. If none of these 3 happen, you are legally liable. Now think how this applies to a young woman, the stress, complications, and mental trauma THAT would cause. And even if you think I'm wrong, please present how you think this WOULD be handled. I'm open to suggestions on this.

[sadpickle]

Prostitution simply isn't that simple, of having consensual, pressure free sex, and money being involved. See, whenever anyone PAYS MONEY, the person paid is OBLIGATED to give service and  satisfy to the best of their ability. In a way, its sort of temporary, money driven slavery : if I pay you money say, to make me dinner, you are FORCED to then make me dinner to the best of your ability, and if you get extremely picky on clients, well you will go broke. Granted you can refuse to accept money, but if you accept, you are then bound.

Legal areas STILL have issues of prostitutes facing depression, being abused, suffering PTSD in similar rates. And even if you disagree, tell me, what would legally happen to a girl who agreed to xyz, couldn't handle it, then backed out? Refund? girl forced to continue? Guy forced to have his money go down the toilet? I mean, instinctually we wish to help the girl as any redblooded man, but it must also be approached as a BUSINESS, as its what they present it as. And in that light, its a clear case of "business did not render services paid for" Which is criminal. If you own a restaurant, and let me pay for dinner, but theres a power outage and you cannot make dinner, theres several courses of action. First, you can try to improvise and make dinner to best possible quality. Second, you could give a refund, EVEN IF I ate the complimentary bread, you are forced to just deal with it. Third, and least likely, apply some sort of a rain check, or PERSONAL AGREEMENT. If none of these 3 happen, you are legally liable. Now think how this applies to a young woman, the stress, complications, and mental trauma THAT would cause. And even if you think I'm wrong, please present how you think this WOULD be handled. I'm open to suggestions on this.

Perhaps it's just semantics, but I feel like there is a fundamental point of misunderstanding here. You are conflating "obligation to perform a service" with "force" which is a very different thing. Here is a comprehensive definition of force, in the philosophical sense: http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Politics_InitiationOfForce.html Government (i.e. the state) is generally the only person who can use force legally; they have a monopoly on force as arbiters of law.

The issue here is the use of force by the state on private actors, who are making a choice (absent coercion) to sell permission to another private actor to do this-or-that with their body. What private actors do, is their responsibility. Provided they can go to the police (legal recourse) and their contracts can receive legal expertise (sex law), there is no reason people should not be free to make these arrangements. It is simply attaching a contract to a sex act, and there are plenty of legal options for breach of contract. Arguing that sex is a particularly messy affair, and thus unsuited for the market, is simply false. History has shown it to be the most marketable commodity in all of history.

Again, I would point to legal brothels in the US and the Netherlands as the most visible examples of legal prostitution that works. If your argument is "well it doesn't really work" I would say this science disagrees with you, and we are at a hopeless impasse. For what it's worth, I have known independent sex workers (their business model is essentially an independent contractor), who have put a great deal of thought in how to manage their business carefully and safely, without relying on the state for protection. To me they seemed quite happy, on or off the clock, and their working establishments were clean and very comfortable. They make good money for the area, considering the hours of work required. I am sure there are operations where the opposite is true, and I would argue these people would be better served if they could work, legally, as an employee of a firm that managed things like health, security, marketing, etc. The people who are most in need of help will never be helped, as long as it is considered moral or acceptable to incarcerate people for trading money for sex.

EDIT: Clarification and grammar

[keylocke]

Good job ignoring all but one point. care to address supply and demand, or the fact that where its legal, most girls are trafficked?

lol. meanwhile you ignore my points and it's OK? hahaha.

as sadpickle have said there are legal brothels and independent prostitution going on and then you can compare those types of prostitution to the ones you are describing about that is mostly caused via extreme poverty which is to what you describe.. that "forces" the prostitute in to making unwanted sex to abusive customers because they have no other option to make money.

because that IS the keypoint here as i keep repeating. it's not the prostitution that is the problem, it's the lack of money which is what forces involuntary people to perform unwanted deeds.

it's not much different from an impoverished soldier/mercenary that is forced to kill to earn a paycheck compared to a soldier who volunteered out of patriotism or just for the luls of it.

anything that forces anyone to do something that they do NOT want, is abuse. especially if the reason why they do it is coz of poverty.

in contrast, try comparing a high-class prostitute to an impoverished prostitute in a third world country.

high-class prostitutes usually do background checks on prospective clients whom their contacts can vouch for.

meanwhile impoverished prostitutes are often pressed into wage slave mode because of poverty.

the thing that forces people to do stuff that they don't wanna do is coz of poverty. <---- which IS the main problem.. NOT prostitution itself.

prostitution is just like any other profession if done in a humane way.

[mumblemumble]

Care to cite "science disagreeing with me" on legal brothels? Or explain the extraordinary rate of trafficking to LEGAL brothels?

I appreciate the effort, sad-pickle, you are actually trying to have a discussion which I DO appreciate. Yeah, i suppose force MIGHT be incorrect, but they are legally obligated, and could face legal repercussions if they didn't do it, give a refund, or come to some sort of deal.

I still want to know, what would happen to the girl in that circumstance.

Key, I ignored your points because my points were addressed in a previous post which YOU ignored, I refuse to fill up the thread with me repeating myself over and over because you refuse to read. You want me to not ignore your points? Go back and read mine. Tired of dealing with you, tired of repeating myself because you are acting a bit childish.

Though when you speak of prostitution and poverty, prostitution doesn't stimulate the economy as much as say, manufacturing, mining, or other stuff. its a 1 time service, which does not enable future production / money making for either party, and causes damages to the whores involved over time, damages which may need money to address. So no, i don't think its really good for the economy

[eadras]

Reading through this thread makes me hope Tynan doesn't choose this for a development path.  Rimworld just doesn't need all the drama that would follow.

[keylocke]

@eadras : i think the whole thread already got hijacked via too much high-horse moralizing that it probably ought to get bumped to off-topic.

as for mumble. dude. i think you're the one being childish. i read your posts which is why i reacted in the first place. you actually remind me of the altar boy i knew back in bible class, back when i still believed that nonsense about the magical cloud genie that grants wishes if i say my hail marys. (no offense, just a tangential anecdote)

tru story.

too much coffee. so drama. i strike it down. blah.

[kasnavada]

@mumblemumble:
What you're basically stating is that basically as long as you're paid to do a service, you're obligated to do so. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sound ? You're basically stating that any job is slavery because money is necessary to live.

Also, waiters, cooks, salesmen and others in the world have the right to refuse service. With a few exceptions like the army, firemen & such, and only in specific circumstances.


I think you wouldn't know what "legal" not-forced prostitution would look like if you had it in front of your nose.

Your equating prostitution with illegallity is on par with equating drugs with everything illegal about drugs. Most of the drugs around the world are called... medecine.

[mumblemumble]

Kasnavada, you misunderstand me slightly. If you ACCEPT money, you are obligated to do so. If I run a shoe cleaning service, take 20 dollars then walk away, this is THEFT.  If for whatever reason I don't WANT to clean them, i hand you 20 bucks back, explain I won't do so, and then its fine.

The distinction is, if i ACCEPT money, meaning, take it from your hand, into mine, I have entered a CONTRACT that, in exchange for the money I am providing a SERVICE. Violating this contract by NOT giving service is illegal, and turns it into theft.

comparisons to waiters, cooks, and some salesmen i also inappropriate as MOST are not their own bosses. if a salesman is selling knives (and is self employed), I pay him 20 for a knife, and he walks away, he is liable for accepting funds and not giving the agreed service (distributing me a knife). For the same, for LEGAL prostitutes, wouldn't they be the same if they accept 300$ for anal, but then refuse? What would happen? Where does law side with? What if they are only halfway done and she backs out? Does she go to jail? if she obligated by law to finish? Is the refund given, even if she is in pain?

Unless any of you can answer these questions, we will get nowhere.

[keylocke]

@mumble :

prostitutes are only expected to have sex with their customers because that is the service that they offer. it's not much different from a barber offering a haircut.

the ABUSE does not necessarily come as a packaged deal.

it's like if a masseuse (whose service only entails a massage) encounters an abusive customer who decided to slap him because it relaxes him. then that is like a breach of contract or understanding between customer and the contractor/employee. which means that the customer should be liable to be banned or penalized or jailed. <--- this is the missing component.

it's the same with prostitutes if they offer sex and only sex, and if they encounter a customer who decided to abuse them coz they refused service or whatever. the customer should be penalized, banned, or jailed. just like in any other service profession.

this is what's meant for a profession to be treated in a humane way.

[mumblemumble]

You are avoiding my questions key as always.

what if a prostitute finds an agreed upon, paid for service (anal) too painful, and wants to back out because she is SCARED? it WAS paid for, it WAS agreed upon, what should be done? Refund the man? Let him finish? Pay the girl and let the man be out of luck? This is the very complicated issue : The abuse in this case (anal) was agreed to, and paid for, and was PART of the service. Its like if someone agrees to clean up a dead body (mortician?) and then backs out because its too disgusting or disturbing. They would be liable to refund the money, or do the job, REGARDLESS if its traumatic, because they agreed.

So AGAIN, I will reiterate : what if a prostitute finds an agreed upon, paid for service (anal) too painful, and wants to back out because she is SCARED? it WAS paid for, it WAS agreed upon, what should be done? Refund the man? Let him finish? Pay the girl and let the man be out of luck?

Please note, you still not have addressed HOW to separate abuse from prostitution, or how to stop trafficking, and other problems which are always alongside it, assuming you even have an idea FOR that. If you don't its likely it will face the same rates of problems we have today.

This is why I say prostitution would be mentally degrading for colonists, and akin to rape...how are we going to say they want to, if they are put on the schedule to do so, outside their own autonomy? And what would make a girl want to let any man inside her, if, as part of a colony, she has nothing personally to gain? In this context, its like if you were pimped out by room-mates for the good of the household...you are the only one sacrificing anything, but everyone else gets the benefits. And your desirability to other mates as a serious partner would go down

If you keep ignoring my question, I will flat out ignore you as well. I'm tired of the games and you ignoring main points, and them claiming I'm wrong