Raid Balance

[nccvoyager]

The storytellers (Pheobe, Cassandra, Randy) all decide how often events occur.

The difficulty decides how large events are, and how much they are scaled compared to the colony wealth.

The base scale of threats depends on number of colonists, number of turrets, (I think turrets are included,) wealth in buildings, and wealth in items.  (Apparently it has been fixed, and wealth in items is actually included in the calculations now.)
This "threat" value is then scaled up, or down, depending on the storyteller difficulty level.

If wealth is not included in the calculations, you can build a huge base with floors made of gold, golden hospital beds, golden walls, and two colonists and only worry about a couple of raiders ever attacking.

Raiders want your stuff.
The more stuff you have, the more raiders want your stuff, and the more of them come to try to get it.
The more colonists and turrets you have, the more of a threat you pose to raiders that want your stuff, and thus the more raiders come to try to get that stuff.

[Quenching Quel]

I think it'd be nice if NPC factions had populations which the game pulled from when determining raid size. Right now, pirate and other factions are just an endless pit of people (which you can't always befriend), and the people in the raids hold no true value because the game can throw an infinite number at you.

I'd like to see my enemies' numbers fall with every failed raid, and rise with every successful kidnapping. I feel like it would add a lot more value to each victory, and a little less frustration when a colonist is left injured or even dead for that matter.

Perhaps an event of "full scale raid", where the storyteller throws every last adult member of the faction at you, and victory would mean the destruction of that faction. Heck, maybe that could be a new win condition

I don't know if it should apply towards Mechs tho :/ What do you guys think?

And how will their faction grow if we're in a backwater planet aka Rimworld that doesn't attract that many people, and reproduction takes too long to keep a sustainable colony if all their members die during offensive raids?
It's not that hard to fend off against raiders (I use hallways filled with traps to weaken them then kill em in a kill box, does this make my statement null?)
Wouldn't that make the game too easy then?

[Gremdavel]

If wealth is not included in the calculations, you can build a huge base with floors made of gold, golden hospital beds, golden walls, and two colonists and only worry about a couple of raiders ever attacking.

Again, I'm not saying wealth shouldn't be included in the calculation.  I'm just saying it should probably be weighted differently.  Yes, extreme difficulty should be extremely difficult.  This was not extremely difficult.  This was hilariously, absurdly impossible.

What might be a cool mechanic, come to think of it, would be that wealth is factored into the equation (and as much as it is now) only  if a raider escapes back to their faction.  Then you can imagine a narrative where they tell their faction about your vast wealth, and they amass a giant army to take it.  It would mean that the more wealth you had, the more important it would be to leave no survivors.  Each faction could have some sort of "perceived wealth" amount that updates whenever one of them "visits" your colony and makes it out alive.

[Serenity]

If wealth is not included in the calculations, you can build a huge base with floors made of gold, golden hospital beds, golden walls, and two colonists and only worry about a couple of raiders ever attacking.

The problem is that certain high value loot like AI cores and scyther claws make the next raid already noticeably more difficult. The jumps in raid strength just seem to abrupt in some cases.

[Britnoth]

Again, I'm not saying wealth shouldn't be included in the calculation.  I'm just saying it should probably be weighted differently.  Yes, extreme difficulty should be extremely difficult.  This was not extremely difficult.  This was hilariously, absurdly impossible.

You were using a modified game that gave you an incredibly inflated start. That is not reasonable feedback for game balance. If the raid is too large, then you can use all that inflated wealth by leaving it outside for them to steal then go away.

The storytellers (Pheobe, Cassandra, Randy) all decide how often events occur.

The difficulty decides how large events are, and how much they are scaled compared to the colony wealth.

The base scale of threats depends on number of colonists, number of turrets, (I think turrets are included,) wealth in buildings, and wealth in items.  (Apparently it has been fixed, and wealth in items is actually included in the calculations now.)
This "threat" value is then scaled up, or down, depending on the storyteller difficulty level.

Correct. Which is why I made a modded storyteller that uses different raid scaling to maintain the challenge after the first couple of seasons...

Turrets are not included above their base material value. There was never any bug with colony wealth. Just people with enough knowledge in how to use the scenario but none in how the game creates raids, giving themselves a ton of free stuff at the start and then wondering why the first raid spawned was the same 1 guy, when the game is hard coded to send your first raid as 35 combat points each time.

Second raid is 50% of your normal raid points from wealth and colonists. Which is why it will be stupidly large if you give yourself all the free gear.

[Gremdavel]

You were using a modified game that gave you an incredibly inflated start. That is not reasonable feedback for game balance.

Well, because the scenario editor is part of the "vanilla" game, I respectfully disagree.  I understand your perspective, and Tynan may certainly disagree that wealth should be weighted differently, but that doesn't make my feedback invalid or unreasonable.

[carbon]

Gremdavel, do you happen to still have the save file to go back and quantify total wealth, date of second raid and whether this really was on extreme difficulty?

[EvilMoogle]

Look at it from the raider's perspective a moment.

Which sounds like a more attractive target to you?  The landing pod that crash landed with three guys that have a few days of food and some basic materials between them or the landing pod that crash landed with one guy with a fortune in gold and jade?

[Gremdavel]

Gremdavel, do you happen to still have the save file to go back and quantify total wealth, date of second raid and whether this really was on extreme difficulty?

Unfortunately I think it's been overwritten, but I still have the scenario template saved.  I am fairly positive it was extreme difficulty, and certain it was the 2nd raid.  And the wealth... super immense.  Absurdly so.  So much gold, silver, jade, and uranium that I had to set them as items nearby instead of starting items, and had to set the colonist to start on the ground instead of a pod because apparently when there are that many stacks on the ground, landing pods glitch out and my colonist couldn't make it to the map.  I probably made an error when I immediately created a stockpile underneath all of it.

This was, of course, all just for fun and to see what would happen.  And to see what gold walls and jade doors look like, etc.

[carbon]

*Builds El Dorado*

*A bunch of Conquistadors show up thinking they own the place*

Seems accurate enough.

[Gremdavel]

Except they didn't even steal anything!  After they killed my colonists they proceeded to destroy as many structures as possible and then I got a message that they'd felt satisfied with the amount of destruction they'd done, and they left.  I guess they were in more of a "wealth is forbidden in this land!" mindset than a "give us all your money!" one.

[EvilMoogle]

Except they didn't even steal anything!  After they killed my colonists they proceeded to destroy as many structures as possible and then I got a message that they'd felt satisfied with the amount of destruction they'd done, and they left.  I guess they were in more of a "wealth is forbidden in this land!" mindset than a "give us all your money!" one.

A fair enough point.  They should take what they can carry when they leave (or summon muffalos to load up if they kill all encountered resistance).

[nccvoyager]

Turrets are not included above their base material value.

Ah, okay.  Well, turrets are pretty powerful then...

As for the wealth, that explains it.  I didn't realize the first attack is always a single raider.

[Britnoth]

You were using a modified game that gave you an incredibly inflated start. That is not reasonable feedback for game balance.

Well, because the scenario editor is part of the "vanilla" game, I respectfully disagree.  I understand your perspective, and Tynan may certainly disagree that wealth should be weighted differently, but that doesn't make my feedback invalid or unreasonable.

*changes game rules using editor, complains game is now unfair*



What.



I don't even.

[chaotix14]

My raid expirence:
First raid- 1 melee guy
Second raid-1~3 melee guys
Third raid-3 weak ranged guys
Fourth raid-7 heavily armoured and heavily armed guys(power helmets, good kevlars, Snipers, M4's)

The jump is real.
Im guessing exploiting and cheesing is the only way to play this game.

That "jump" is caused by the fact that the first waves of raids have hardcoded limitations on how much stuff they can field. So they actually don't scale with the stuff you have all that much, which means that if you've build up like mad.... you are going to have a bad time when the storyteller is finally unchained, especially on higher difficulties.


Also to Gremdavel your feedback is invalid. If I were to increase melee damage to 3000% with the vanilla editor I'm not allowed to complain that melee does too much damage(because I modified the game to a point of inbalance rather than the base game being unbalanced), the same is true for the weight calculation of wealth when you modify the game to start you with boat loads of items(because you are creating the imbalance yourself rather than there being an imbalance in the game).

The scenario editor should be seen as a basic modding tool within rimworld and not like an always balanced vanilla enhancer. You can seriously screw yourself with that scenario editor, try starting on ice sheets with a scenario that forbids hunting and taming, and doesn't give you any starting food. There is no way to balance the potential of those kind of scenarios being made(aside from making any non-balls to the wall challenge scenario a cakewalk).

I however fully agree with the fact that raiders should raid the place leaving with whatever they can rather than trying to wreck the place and then leave empty handed. But from my own experience they seem to do that already. I currently have a colony with an open stockpile(basically just an area with pillars and a roof) and if I don't seriously harm the raiders(like killing one or two) before they get somewhere in the vicinity of the stockpile they will just snatch whatever valuables I have and leave. Which due to the set up of my base can happen from time to time depending on which direction the raid comes.