[Mod idea]From Ranged to Meele

[Bunkier]

It will be very nice to see mod what will allow to change from ranged weapon to meele. Colonists could carry knives with them. That would be very useful.

[Thirite]

It's been suggested many times. But I agree, it would be a nice feature.

[RazorHed]

Yeah , a very much needed and missing feature. I just replied in another thread about how an ammo system could be useful as well with an ammo belt .

[lazuli42]

The Combat Realism mod adds an inventory system to carry multiple weapons and items, as well as requiring ammo for guns. It's CCL dependent though, so it doesn't work for A15 yet.

[Britnoth]

Carrying both ranged and melee weapons break game balance, so should be left to modding. Has been said many times.

[Razzoriel]

Carrying both ranged and melee weapons break game balance, so should be left to modding. Has been said many times.

I can make a fortification have multiple melee weapons nearby and simply re-equip my colonists when there are too many melee raiders. The added work doesn't mean it is not possible, it is simply more frustrating to control. It is simply a matter of adding a cooldown timer to let colonists switch weapons, so it isn't automatic and once the raider closes in to the colonist, you can simply swap weapons. If you add a tick value to this system, so that they'll need some time to adjust their weapons, it can work. Why not add melee penalties then to colonists carrying large ranged weapons (so one can simply add holsters to pistols and switch when required)? Why not add sheaths so that only colonists equipping sheaths can equip both?

This answer is lazy, and it shows that Tynan has no intentions of making realism work the way it is supposed to work. Which is a shame, because I thought that the whole point of the game was to make it quite like that.

[Britnoth]

How is my answer lazy?

You have given a way it can work, but no explanation of why it would be good for the game.

As soon as you make swapping to a good melee weapon easy to do, you make specialised melee pawns obsolete.

What is the point in carrying a good melee weapon if any idiot with a gun can swap to a knife and do serious damage back at me?

Answer: None whatsoever. Congratulations. In your attempt to make the game more 'realistic' and have more 'melee combat' you just made melee combat obsolete and removed an interesting combat element from the game.

Good job. 

[A Friend]

Fair point with a dash of snark. Exquisite.

I can't accurately find a thread discussing weapon swapping so I dunno what detailed problems my idea would have:

Add weights to weapons that impact movement? So some dude can't go carrying a minigun and a longsword around? Melee specs would still have the advantage cause they're faster and better suited for melee since the other guy would probably just be equipped with a shiv or knife. If not and they carry both a longsword and some sniper rifle then your pawns could easily flank him and gun him down before he gets to cover.

While we're at it, have swap times depend also on the combined weight of both weapons. There'd be like 3 main combinations we'll usually see.
1. Heavy weapon kits are powerful on both CQC and Range but the slower swaps give more time for melee specs to land 1 or 2 hits in (With a longsword that's probably enough) before being enganged themselves, Basically glass cannons with miniguns and longswords.
2. Light weapon kits are can't dish much damage but are fast and agile, perfect for hit and runs between cover. Pawns with pistols, sub-machine guns and knives
3. Medium weapon kits are a middle ground. Some guy with a machinegun and a knife or longsword and pistol.

Right now, the "MELEE SPECIALIZATION" seems... meh. They mostly serve as bullet bait or for defense. Sure there's the option of going into offense and the risk of their shield going down and then taking damage but after they reach their target (ranged pawns), it's a guaranteed takedown.
Charge -> Reach Target - > Win - > Retreat into a nearby hole and wait for shields to recharge

With this idea though, I can imagine some hit-and-run tactics happening. I have these scenarios in my mind right now.
1. You can have light pawns do some potshots on enemy flanks and then going in for melee when a sniper get's close.
2. You can have light pawns equipped with shields and a knife. You hide behind a rock and then a charge nearby heavy raider. You get like a few stabs in before he pulls out his longsword and you retreat. He chases after you for a few tiles. But since he left his cover, your snipers get a better view of him. Unable to get back into cover fast enough, he takes a sniper round to the head.
3. Melee Specs could be equipped with pistols, allowing them to help even for a bit, only bringing out a sword when a raider get's too close.
4. Snipers and Heavy Pawns have the option to help a bit after enemies gets too close to their position by pulling out a knife instead of just running away. But be careful, swap too late and that might just screw you over.
5. And some others more...

What good does it do for the game? Well, it sounds more interesting instead of the rock paper scissors we have right now. Also it'll be like a QOL for the people who already micromanage this kind of stuff. + new "strategical engagements"!
Then again, I'm unsure if this is better suited for a mod or a vanilla feature.

I honestly just want there to be two weapon slots so my EMP guy can atleast help take down these mechanoid f***s after they go immune to stun.

[Britnoth]

...the other guy would probably just be equipped with a shiv or knife.

Combat Realism mod has (or had) both carried weight and carried bulk restrictions. It also had backpacks and combat vests to help you carry more.

Increased weight slowed you down. This worked pretty well, I felt.

Increased bulk reduced work speed. This felt totally illogical to me. When you are cooking, why do you have a sniper rifle slung over your shoulder?

~~~~

Anyway, it didn't take you long to discover that even basic melee weapons like a shiv or knife were pretty godly, while having no real downside to carry because of their small size and tiny weight.

Lets consider a very simplified system:

Either you can carry a larger ranged weapon and a knife sized melee weapon, or you can carry a larger melee weapon and side arm of a pistol.

Right now the defender (thats usually you) has the advantage of choosing where to fight. You can shoot at them from range, or let them come close to you and then jump out and melee them, removing their ranged advantage if they have one.

How good can the shivs or knives the gun carrying raider be? In a shootout, I will hopefully have the advantage of better cover and the ability to withdraw if someone is badly hurt. In a melee fight both sides will be hitting each other more often than missing, and running away is not really a viable option.

For a melee combat to be worth it from the players standpoint, I need to both kill the enemy and take significantly less damage to myself to make up for that poorer tactical position I am in. If we give every gun wielding raider an excellent knife, then every person we attack that we do not immediately overwhelm will be getting in good damage in return, making this a pretty bad plan.

To make melee combat worth it, we need to have a major advantage over the enemy to make up for the zero range and often bad position we are in to do it. Right now that is enemies only being able to punch back for poor damage. Low damage plus no infections = a good position for us. Higher damage and/or cuts that can get infected is a very bad trade.

This is the mistake Combat Realism was making. If everyone can easily carry around a hastily made, super light and small shiv that would deal comparable damage to a sword, then melee combat is to be avoided at all costs, as the trade in damage is too even and the raiders will have more men than you do, if they are any threat.

If you make the shivs or knives similar to unarmed combat right now, all you are doing is adding another element of micro that adds nothing to the game. Which I am also against.

This is why weapon swapping is just a terrible idea. 

[Razzoriel]

My previous point about laziness was not directed at the poster, but at the game concept itself. I'll take the snarkiness and counter-points.

You can't shoot a bow when someone is at you with a sword. But you can try to shoot him with a small firearm, until you have to reload. And that is a point where Combat Realism went missing. Also, there's a thing called slings where you can let a weapon rest on your shoulder to quickly swap weapons. Also, why not make it so pawns can equip two weapons, then I can switch from sniper rifles to pistols or PDWs if needed be?

Swapping weapons mid-combat should be greatly penalized. Fighting in melee with a ranged weapon in your inventory should be penalized according to their bulk. Shivs and knives needed a nerf in CR. Melee on itself was greatly buffed in CR, which invalidated any melee attempts.

So, what I'm proposing is:

- Most ranged weapons should have minimal range.

- Touch range needs a rework. Classifying as "Touch" something 4 meters away is not accurate. Touch also has a problem where anything up to 4 sq uses that accuracy variable (see that pistol you have? it's 90% accuracy from 1 to 4 squares, meaning you're as accurate with it if someone is whacking at you with a spear than if they were in a confortable distance.

- Engagement rules. If I'm shooting at something at melee range which is not focused at me, I should be more accurate.

- Ranged accuracy worked way better in CR than vanilla.

- Melee chops down limbs too easily. Limb removal should be applied only in most extreme cases, and something like a "Mangled" limb should be applied, where it loses effectiveness permanetly, but its not detached from the body, and can be healed with long-term treatment.

- It does not help that the charged rifle is insanely powerful and common for raiders. Shielded colonists pop their shields too quickly whenever they face charge rifle raids.

Bottomline: The penalties melee bring to you penalize melee combat too much to make it worthwhile in Vanilla, making retarded things like shielded raiders being much more of a threat than those with sniper/charge rifles.

[kazenokizu]

Let's just say we could use a better system. I mean a bayonet onto a rifle would be a nice idea to give people with a ranged weapon a fighting chance. Something like an SMG/PDW and a decent knife would be fair, as there is no way, to really mimic people grappling, slamming, fighting each, in a traditional sense. so yeah... hopefully we can get that combat mod back and life will be better.