[A16] Tech Tree Scrolling

[AmosKamal]

Ive installed multiple mods, and have triple checked to see if they are in fact A16 (they are) but im seeing a problem in the tech tree, where im not able to scroll up or donw in the tech tree, so things like machining and other techs are almost completely hidden by the edge of the screen. Im probably overlooking something really simple, but if someone can help i would be eternally grateful.
Amos

[skullywag]

Theres no vertical scroll on the research screen. Tynans system should allow for all research to fit in the current system. If its not then thats a bug and should be raised.

[QuantumX]

@Skallywag, there is def an issue, not sure if a bug or a feature. If a person has enough Mods and those mods dont use the X,Y co-ords or too many use the same X-Y co-ords then eventually some items in the research tree will push off the bottom of the research screen.

[skullywag]

We know. I and others raised this in testing. Im not gonna go into anymore detail tham that but suffice to say you wont see a mod out of me until this thing is fixed. I dont have the time to work out what everyone else is doing with their research defs.

[Tynan]

Skullywag, I don't understand the fury here. I said before that we spent 3 days trying to make a research tree auto-layout. It didn't work. We tried what you wanted and it didn't work. It was obvious it would take much more effort to get it to work satisfactorily.

So the choice was between

1. Trying more to do something here and miss Christmas, or
2. Getting the core game right and releasing before Christmas, knowing that the system was going to be in a non-perfect state for one alpha.

I chose option 2. Because:

A. It's an alpha, it's going to change, it's not gonna last forever. Perfection wasn't the goal, nor is it a reasonable standard to judge it by.
B. You guys are modders. If you want a piece of functionality on the research screen, you can add it. If you want more scrollbars, you can add them. If you want a new research screen or new layout algorithm, you can make it. You have everything you need. You're not blocked or prevented from anything.
C. It's for information gathering. There are lots of potential solutions to the research overload problem. You're saying here it should be vertically scrollable. But what about tabs? What about an auto-layout engine? Or something else entirely? Which one do we choose? I could just guess. But, my philosophy is to gather evidence before making design decisions. That means seeing what the problems are before you design a solution to them, and seeing how people interact with the problem. It's not intended as a perfect final solution. It's an alpha, it's supposed to be broken, but watching the ways it is broken will inform my decision of how to handle this for future builds.
D. General design approach: If I demanded perfection of every RimWorld system before being willing to release it, none of you would be playing RimWorld.
E. I wanted to get Alpha 16 out for Christmas and to do that you have to focus on essentials.

I'm aware that you might not agree with my choice here but it's not reasonable to act like this is some sort of offensive, immoral act I've undertaken by releasing this research screen. It's a straightforward application of all the same design principles that attracted all of you to RimWorld in the first place.

[QuantumX]

Thanks for the Info, and personally i prefer the A16 release as is rather than not..

As for my own mod which has alot of research options, I just offset my research to start on x-20 onward which made it a little more tidy. Mods with little or not research should be fine auto placing within the first 20 X columns.

For Y though the limit is basically 5 because there is not scroll down feature, though in reality just having a scroll down feature to say 50-Y would likely allow auto-placement to be fine for people running quote a few mods. Unfortunately adding a scroll down to the window is beyond my expertise as i assume it need assemblies?

[Tynan]

Vertical scrollbar is nice if the mods have totally separate research trees from the base game. So are tabs.

But, in real life, mods often base their research from the vanilla research tree, so it can't all be isolated easily. What do we do if 10 different modders all create new research projects based on Electricity? Simply adding a vertical scroll bar or tabs doesn't help with this - the only real solution seems to be some sort of auto-layout. Or, tabs with invisible dependencies between them (which I don't like a ton).

[skullywag]

Theres no fury, that was fact, I dont see setting manual coords as something i want to spend my time maintaining (yes i do think it will cause me maintenance) and i know other forum members are working on mods to address this, so ill wait for that. Apologies if it came across like i was angry, im not. Its a game, ive plenty of things to do in the meantime.

However the vertical scrollbar part im confused by, ive seen the largest research tree in HCSKs rendered with no height restriction and its perfectly readable, compared to the post on reddit that you may have seen its way more clear than what modders are throwing out now. The logic behind that isnt THAT complex. Even your own easing system in now would work better with more vertical space as far as i can see.

I imagine that yes this will become clearer as more modders understand the system a bit more, but ive yet to want to play due to my modded research tree (made up of my own and others mods) being a complete mess and I, as the player, have to spend time trying to sort it out (which ive yet to find the patience to do). Ive seen people telling others to simply bypass it and dev mode all research!!! Which leads me back to not touching this until theres a solution. Its your game, in alpha, do i agree with this decision? probaby not, am i angry about it? god no.

As always emotion does not convey well over text. Take everything i say as me being disappointed that this system wasnt really modder friendly from the get go, i understand that you cannot take modders into account everytime you make something new but in this instance its really really not working for anyone (who plays modded), I care A LOT about how this game develops and sometimes that can come across with some extreme sounding responses, i DO NOT get angry about games, frustrated yeah sure, but not angry.

Anyways thats enough waffle, lets see what my fellow modders come up with as ive seen 2 system being worked on already.

Also we still need to address the "bug" with the easing system, it seems to be pushing stuff out of the visible space.

[Tynan]

Great!

I'll be interested to see what solutions modders can come up with now. For me, I might just add a way to add tabs for A16B. There may be invisible links between different tabs but they'll still be listed in the info pane. We'll see.

[Dingo]

I'll join skully on this, the current system is very bad. Some possible improvements:

1) [Absolutely required] Have scrolling up and down (maybe even scale tree according to largest y coord, if y>something then add a scrollbar).

2) [Optional] Have tabs for categories like Agriculture, Electronics etc. (do not do tabs for mods, that will just create chaos).

3) Instead of defs setting x/y, have them set prereqs and a category and generate according to that.

[Love]

Anything that does not require manually setting coordinates would be ideal. I think that is the most important thing.

The scrolling stuff is secondary. If it's part of the solution, great. But the most important thing is to get rid of the manual coordinate system by any means necessary.

[AshbornK9]

I think that Dingo's suggestion of tabs would work really well, have a tabs for Weapons, Medical, Structural, Defense, Science/Electrical, and anything else than makes sense. Get rid of the manual coords, make it a bit bigger (vertical scrolling or whathaveyou), and then ensure that no techs get pushed off the tree. I agree that having tabs for each mod may cause issues, but possibly consulting the modding community as a whole for more ideas for tabs may be a good idea as well. 

[skyarkhangel]

Great!

I'll be interested to see what solutions modders can come up with now. For me, I might just add a way to add tabs for A16B. There may be invisible links between different tabs but they'll still be listed in the info pane. We'll see.

Hello Tynan, look at this.
https://pp.vk.me/c637319/v637319347/24944/XWNCvHls7M0.jpg

its hardcore sk on a16, with about 190-200 researches + error in debug menu that can't to place some of them bcs of lack of space.

I will be Happy if Fluffy research tree + CCL Help system update to A16 or added to A16.

just compare with Fluffy's research tree, its also hardcore sk tree with 200 researches with auto-generation tree. It like a heaven and earth! Not a comparable level. I'm not sure that Ludeon could make better. Can we willnt reinvent the wheel, its already exist and add with respect for his owners to main game?
http://image.prntscr.com/image/6f48e740ad57441181f1d6cbd0e9b61c.png
http://image.prntscr.com/image/e207b9bccb4c464a8284e413bbcd09cc.png

[O Negative]

I think the idea of seeing a tech tree is great. It's visually appealing, and it helps people plan what research projects to prioritize.

However, I don't think RimWorld will ever be 100% mod friendly with a visible tech tree like this. Like Tynan said, it would take so much time and effort to get it right, and is it really what we want focused on? Maybe some of the modders in this community has the time to try to figure it out, but it certainly wouldn't be a fun project to work on, I don't think...

I'm a visual learner, and I had no problems with the old research screen

[RawCode]

game can ensure mod support, but no matter how hard developer try, he can't ensure mod compatability.

techtree is great, but modifications that add 300 research items just neh, it's problem of modification, not game.

tabs or alternative allocation or sliders won't fix problem, it's simply impossible to render such amount of research items properly.

valid and easy to implement - multiple levels for research items, but, modder already can do it, by setting flags and replacing one research item with other, sadly, many mods just add 10 tech items for each level, making things ugly.