[1.0] Children and Pregnancy - v0.5b (2019/Feb/25)

Started by Thirite, December 27, 2016, 09:06:22 PM

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O Negative

Really awesome, seeing this come out like this!

Sorry I didn't have time to help you do more private testing :( University loves to swallow my time.

You've done something truly amazing for the topic of children in RimWorld. I'll be following it more closely now that this is public :)

Hydromancerx

Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 28, 2016, 01:11:05 PM
I used to be against the addition of rimkids just because of the length required for them to actually be useful in a playthrough, but seeing the current implementation you have set so far and with A16's caravan mechanic, I'm starting to see how they might work pretty decently.

For backstories/traits, couldn't you just look at the backlog of all events that occurred to the pawn during x ages and then assign the associated story/traits when they hit an older age? i.e child kills a raider, event logs in save and then there's a chance they get assigned a bloodlust/incapable of violence trait. Would be an interesting dynamic that changes how the colonist grows up in the end.

Have you looked in compatibility with other visual-changing mods for colonists, i.e Facial Stuff? I can't imagine they work together great but the visual of a dreadlock-beard toddler is pretty funny.

At the very least jut a generic "Rimworlder" childhood trait since we know all babies will be born on rimworld (as opposed to say a glitterworld).

@Thirite

I look forward to trying out your mod when you have it ready for alpha 16. Just having "pet babies" is a huge step!

Thirite

Quote from: Hydromancerx on December 28, 2016, 07:26:55 PM
...
Right, when children grow up to the teenager stage they'll get a generic "Rimworld child" backstory that doesn't give any pluses or minuses to skills, since those are gained through normal gameplay during the child stage.

Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on December 28, 2016, 01:11:05 PM
...
I like the idea of gaining traits relevant to a child's experiences, though I'll probably do it dynamically rather than have them all suddenly appear when they become a teenager. ie: a child killing a raider may immediately get the Bloodlust trait, eating human flesh may immediately get the Cannibal trait, getting beaten up for Masochist, etc.

Most of the traits seem to be "genetic traits" which will be decided immediately upon birth- eg: Psychopath, Too Smart, every 'Spectrum Trait'. So at least I don't have to worry about having the code watch for too many different things to happen.

UnsavoryChap

Some questions I haven't seen addressed yet


       
  • To what degree is the feeding of a newborn tied to the mother? What happens if the mother dies, and if the father takes over, what if he dies? How might this system interact with an "incapable of caring" trait?
  • Is giving birth implemented as a medical procedure? Is there any chance the baby or mother are injured or killed during birth?
  • Can a pregnant woman be wounded in a way that kills the unborn child?
  • Do newborns/toddlers/children need tending to other than feeding?
  • Do newborns/toddlers/children consume food at the same rate as an adult?
  • Do newborns/toddlers/children wear adult clothes?
  • It sounds like children are somewhere between animals and colonists in their capabilities and traits. Can children be given orders? Is there anything children outright can't do at all; like medically treat people or act as a warden?
  • If children learn skills at a much faster rate for 3.5 years, even starting at zero, wouldn't children emerge into adulthood with level 20 in multiple areas? A colonist can get to level 20 in less time than that.

Some impulsive ideas:


  • Toddlers/children degrade the cleanliness of wherever they go faster than colonists. Their clothing and any equipment they're using wears down faster. They're more prone to discarding gear and clothing in random places. Newborns more rapidly degrade the cleanliness of whatever room they're in
  • Toddlers are only able to open wood doors and auto-doors. Children can open more but the heaviest types are still unopenable or they're very slow at it
  • Toddlers, and children to a lesser extent, are curious and destructive. They have a chance of breaking stuff/setting fires/ruining equipment/destroying individual soft perishables. Can randomly injure themselves on anything involving heat or electricity. Can randomly injure pets. If they encounter a weapon there's a chance they initiate an "attack" by that weapon with random result, including injuring themselves or someone nearby
  • Toddlers don't know to avoid deadfall or IED traps, and perhaps they're too small to set off the former. Children know they're there, but there's a chance they get too curious about them
  • Children are less focused on their tasks, and prone to go off doing something random or pointless or involving playing with an animal. They have erratic or suboptimal pathfinding and less patience with doing one thing for too long. They're more likely to randomly do whatever people near them are doing
  • Children prefer being outside in goodish weather. There's a small chance they violate zone restrictions, and for no real reason
  • Toddlers are slower than adults. Children are faster than normal-speed adults, or are normal speed but at random times they're fast, as if running for no reason. Sandbags and other geometrical obstacles proportionately slow both of them down a lot more
  • Vents and furniture are passable by toddlers/children and count as obstacles that decrease walking speed. In the case of furniture it's as if they're climbing on top
  • Wild animals are more likely to attack toddlers/children
  • Children are more mentally stressed out by fires, raids, violence, and deaths. Lightning has a chance to cause a mood debuff. Child mental breaks are only of the hide in room or sad wandering variety
  • Toddlers/children have a lower threshold for being downed by injuries
  • Flesh injuries to the torso or head are more likely to kill newborns/toddlers/children. All types of injuries are less likely to cause long term impairments
  • The flu and plague is more serious for newborns/toddlers/children, with the youngest most at risk. Just so it's not all bad, newborns/toddlers/children are immune to sleeping sickness and the symptoms of parasites are less severe
  • Default medikits are not recommended for use on colonists below age 16. It's no less effective at treating ailments but there's a chance of side effects like food poisoning or kidney damage. Use herbal medicine instead
  • Children/toddlers are inclined towards eating chocolate and berries
  • There's a decent chance an obedient dog or wolf will rescue a downed child/toddler regardless of whether it was trained to do so. Dogs and other small tamed mammals are likelier to bond with children than adults. Cats are the exception, and there's a small chance a pet cat will attack a newborn. Some random strange animal, like the megasloth or spelopede, are hugely friendlier with children and have a greatly increased chance of being trained by them
  • Children/toddlers are not innately interested in drugs or beer. If they do take them they have an amplified effect and it's likelier to result in medical problems inherent to the substance. The harder drugs have a chance to kill them instantly. Beer gives no mood buff, or gives a debuff
  • Children are unaffected by the looks of other colonists (beautiful, ugly, etc.). Colonists with the "dislikes [gender]" trait only apply the negative opinion to adults, children don't count. If children can have the abrasive trait, it has no effect on adults
  • An adult's "sleep disturbed" debuff is larger if caused by a child or toddler
  • If there are multiple children, their social interactions and (non-romantic) relationships are disproportionately confined to each other. The same holds for adults among adults. Children who grow up together are more likely to have a friend or rival status with each other. Children are more susceptible to social fights, which only occur with other children. If children can have the psychopathic, abrasive, or bloodlust traits, those who do might bully toddlers
  • A child wielding a bow or throwable weapon has decreased range. Accuracy is decreased for all ranged weapons. If we pretend a charge rifle lacks recoil, children suffer no hit to accuracy. Children with automatic weapons behave like they have the "trigger happy" trait, while they handle longer range rifles as if they have the "careful shooter" trait, but with little to no accuracy improvement. Children can fire mortars faster than an adult. A child with a melee weapon inflicts far less damage, with the exception of the Scyther blade
  • Wearing a helmet impairs a child's vision. Wearing other kinds of armor has a larger negative impact on walking speed and additionally impairs manipulation
  • Certain raiding factions will wholly ignore any non-hostile children. But if a child attacks them, that faction will consider children fair game in the future, including kidnapping children. If children can be on the slave market, pirates prefer kidnapping children. If the player kidnaps a child from another faction, that faction might raid you later trying to get the child back. If it's possible to capture/recruit children, they're easier to recruit than the other members of their faction. Killing or injuring newborns/toddlers/children of other factions are likelier to inspire retaliation from all enemy factions
  • Toddlers/children are generally harder to hit with gunfire/arrows, and cover/sandbags proportionately protects them more than it does adults
  • Some random colonist join events involve an adult with a child/toddler/newborn, or a pregnant female, or a lost or abandoned child, or a child with a pet, or a child with a toddler. If you recruit someone from a visiting or trading groups who has a toddler/child (whether or not the child is accompanying the visiting or trading party) there's a chance they bring their kid into your colony too

Tammabanana

Ah - Unsavory's mention of zone restriction possible violation reminds me. Perhaps a variation on the "Arrest"function, where you can right-click the kid to send an adult to go pick them up and get them out of danger? (Or out of the chocolate.) Possibly Wardens assigned to do this as one of their chores, or any nearby adult?

(Maybe a new work type, Childcare, that could be treated like Firefighting/Doctor - something you could set to 1 for any skilled/interested colonists, or for all of them capable.)
Tam's tiny mods: forum thread: Kitchen Counters and other shelving *** Smoked meat *** Travel rations: MREs *** Pygmy Muffalo

Hydromancerx

#20
Those are some great ideas! Some ideas for furniture ...

Crib
Basically beds for babies and toddlers.

Playpen
Keeps babies and toddlers from moving around. Possibly gives some mood buffs.

Highchair
Used to feed babies and toddlers. No mood buff from not eating at a table for babies and toddlers.

Toy Chest
Increases the mood for Toddlers and Children when they interact with it.

Playground
A large increases of mood for Toddlers and Children when they interact with it.

SergeshD123

I think those are a little bit too much for Thirite to work on by himself. If you guys know some of the big name Modders from the other sub please notify them of this mod.

Can't wait to see how much human leather babies yield

Tammabanana

Quote from: SergeshD123 on December 29, 2016, 09:44:17 AM
I think those are a little bit too much for Thirite to work on by himself. If you guys know some of the big name Modders from the other sub please notify them of this mod.

"Big name"? Really?

I'll grant that this is a bravely extensive mod Thirite has taken on authorship of, and that we've already thrown out more suggestions than he's likely to be able to implement in any soon-ish time-frame, and that he may have already addressed or planned how to address a bunch of them in his existing code.  But he's already mentioned that he's had modder-testers on his under-wraps version, and by posting this thread he's recruiting other interested modder-testers, some of whom are likely to voice their enthusiasm and opinions in the form of volunteered code for his review/possible integration.

Rimkids have been a hotly debated issue forever. I wouldn't expect implementation to be fast. The community debate isn't going to stop, it's going to move from theoretical to practical. It's not going to be any faster by seeking out "big name" modders, who became "big names" by writing huge mods that they've already committed vast amounts of time to maintaining. If they have time and interest, they'll be reading this forum and they'll volunteer themselves.

If Thirite wasn't a "big name" already, bv taking the wheel on Rimkid implementation, he's become one.
Tam's tiny mods: forum thread: Kitchen Counters and other shelving *** Smoked meat *** Travel rations: MREs *** Pygmy Muffalo

Tammabanana

Quote from: Thirite on December 29, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
I like the idea of gaining traits relevant to a child's experiences, though I'll probably do it dynamically rather than have them all suddenly appear when they become a teenager. ie: a child killing a raider may immediately get the Bloodlust trait, eating human flesh may immediately get the Cannibal trait, getting beaten up for Masochist, etc.

Most of the traits seem to be "genetic traits" which will be decided immediately upon birth- eg: Psychopath, Too Smart, every 'Spectrum Trait'. So at least I don't have to worry about having the code watch for too many different things to happen.

I like this. I've been tinkering with traits lately; if I were to volunteer you more genetic traits geared towards the Rimworld-born, what kind of scope would you want on them? Are bonuses to work types (Social/Handling/etc.) fair game, and if so, should they stay under +2 or +4 or something? There's a bunch of other things that can be added to traits, too, like various work speeds or accuracy, that might reflect a kid's natural aptitude for something or other.
Tam's tiny mods: forum thread: Kitchen Counters and other shelving *** Smoked meat *** Travel rations: MREs *** Pygmy Muffalo

SergeshD123

@ Tammabanana

So what exactly is the point here? I'm just saying that Thirite can use some help from other experienced modders, never said anything about Thirite not being an experienced modder or him not having a retinue of his own. Just simply saying that inviting reputable people to work alongside Thirite can't hurt and it would speed up the progress. Mods aren't that hard to maintain, only once per Alpha, unless modders are constantly adding new features, which not everyone does. We can notify people with notable accomplishments of this mod, so they can help Thirite out with it. Having more people to work on it can't hurt, especially skilled people.

I don't see how Rimkid being a controversial subject is relevant to the current subject matter of speeding up the progress of this mod. Not everyone is going to be against Thirite's ideas. You are making it sounds like all Big Name modders are going to disagree and refuse to help him.

We have to notify others because people usually don't go into this sub, it gets less publicity here. If more people know, there will be greater interest in contributing to the mod.

Thirite

#25
Oh wow. Quite the response.

Quote from: UnsavoryChap on December 29, 2016, 06:40:10 AM
Some questions I haven't seen addressed yet
...

1- Currently babies eat normal meals. I'll probably add a job to breastfeed/baby food later but not in the first stable release.
2- Shortly before giving birth the woman will require "rescue" to a bed, and after giving birth will gain a Hediff to control post pregnancy recovery and behavioural effects.
3- Yes, this is already in the vanilla game code
4- They will often make filth which needs to be cleaned up but nothing other than that has been planned/implemented
5- It's planned they'll have a faster metabolism but I've not implemented it yet
6- Newborns/Toddlers are forbidden from wearing clothes, and children wear the same clothes as adults for simplicity's sake.
7- Children can do everything an adult can with the exception of Lovin' for obvious reasons. Even toddlers can be "drafted" so you can tell them to get out of danger. Though when I add the functionality for "Put toddler in crib" that will be disabled. Some skills like Doctoring will need some way to educate (I'll probably add 'textbooks' eventually that freely train a skill up to a certain level) so you don't need to have a child constantly cutting up prisoners if you want them to be a doctor. I heard about a "Teaching" mod that adds classroom functionality for colonists in an older version of the game, but I think I'll leave that to someone else to make. Kind of outside the purview of my mod.
8- Hm, really? Even with skill drain? I guess I will have to see how it works without an XP boost and balance it from there.

Going to continue this post on my computer

Lots of good ideas in this post too. Some are already true just based on vanilla code interacting with my mod (7,9,11,12,24). I'll be sure to save this for later.

Quote from: Tammabanana on December 29, 2016, 07:36:32 AM
...Perhaps a variation on the "Arrest"function, where you can right-click the kid to send an adult to go pick them up and get them out of danger? (Or out of the chocolate.) Possibly Wardens assigned to do this as one of their chores, or any nearby adult?
Yeah, that will be part of the crib's function. "Put NAME in crib" will be a job available to any colonist older than a child. Toddlers will be able to crawl into a crib by themselves to go to sleep, but will require help to be let out.


@SergeshD123/Tammabanana
Really the only help that can be given is contextual help relevant to whatever problem I am currently having with the code. For example, I was recently trying to figure out how to make custom backstories load via xml, but CCL already had that feature it turns out. So I copy/pasted the code I needed and problem solved.

Maintaining a mod can be very cumbersome, because you have to go and fix a whole bunch of new problems created that you have no warning of every few months, instead of working on improving the mod. It also limits you to not make more mods, because each new mod you make is another mod that will need to be updated every alpha. Just look at the Prisoners and Slaves mod by 1000101- its features are requested probably as much as children but he's put it on the backburner until Rimworld stops being in such a state of constant revision. The more complex the mod, the more work it's going to take every game update to fix. It's why I've put off updating it to A16 until I hammer out the basic feature set, just so I'm actually doing work on the mod itself.

When I do make a stable release, presumably for A16, the best help I'll be able to get is testing for bugs/balance and player log files of any errors encountered.

Hydromancerx

Baby Food could be interesting to have. As well as formula. Maybe milk can be used as a stand in for nursing.

SergeshD123

By the way, will this mod be compatible with Prepare Carefully? Or EPOE?

Thirite

#28
In A15 it would work, but Prepare Carefully would throw an error if you generated a colonist younger than 13 (by hitting random a bunch of times, since PC locks minimum age at 15). My guess is that this is a problem with PC not asking for the child graphics. EPOE should work perfectly fine on the other hand, as I've been using it the entire time developing this mod (along with Hospitality)

Mods that absolutely wouldn't work with this are Custom Alien Races and Facial Stuff. Basically anything that modifies how a colonist is drawn in game.

SergeshD123

What about custom NPC alien races? Will it work with the Lovecraft mod that add monstrosities? Will it work with hair mods like Spoon hair?

It looks like I would have to make a few sacrifices to get my hand on delicious baby meats