[1.3] Dubs Bad Hygiene | Mint Menus/Minimap | Paint Shop | Rimkit | Skylights

Started by Dubwise, January 02, 2017, 02:52:23 PM

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Kori

Just wanted to say THANK YOU for your awesome mods, I couldn't imagine playing without Hygiene and Skylights anymore!  :)

Only one thing I always wondered is: does hot water give any positive effects to bathtubs/ showers?

If the answer is "no", please consider that being my feature request.  ;)

Dubwise

Quote from: Kori on September 12, 2017, 10:31:01 PM
Just wanted to say THANK YOU for your awesome mods, I couldn't imagine playing without Hygiene and Skylights anymore!  :)

Only one thing I always wondered is: does hot water give any positive effects to bathtubs/ showers?

If the answer is "no", please consider that being my feature request.  ;)

Thanks, i just finished Rimatomics so i'll be back to doing an update on this very soon, right now the only thing to do with heat is that baths and showers can reduce the effects of heatstroke and hypothermia and give a mood bonus for having a nice hot or cool shower along with it.

I didn't want to make hot water a requirement for washing so that you didn't have to use my heating, and i was planning on splitting the central heating and hygiene in A18 because i had a bunch of requests for it, which would mean to have water heating it would either need its own heater again, or i would need to do some parent mod like a DubsCoreMod as a prerequisite for both mods to join them together, which i would really hate to do, but i have also been getting lots of requests to add hot water now and there is other heating mods out there so I'm thinking i should just leave it all in 1 mod after all and just add mod options to switch off specific needs and adjust the rates with settings or by difficulty.

So if i keep it all bundled together and add hot water, i need to make it work with the new capacity I'm using for the central heating, in the illustration below you can see that the hot water tank would only be used for bathroom fixtures instead of being backup storage for central heating like it is now, you wont miss it because the radiators dissipate heat much slower now, it would take a share of the heating capacity same as the radiators. Solar heaters would only heat the water tank and not the radiators and would be super cheap to make

The stove and immersion would heat the hot water tank and radiators. If you are running an immersion heater then the thermostat in the hot water tank, or thermostats placed in rooms, could automatically switch it on when either temp is low, the stove would just run continuously when fueled.

The effects on bathing would probably be more in line with eating meals, so only negative effects for the level of the need, and buffs would be based on the quality of the wash, a filthy wash bucket or having a cold shower because the hot waters used up would be like the nutrient paste level, up to a hot bath being the fine meal.


Kori

Quote from: dubwise56 on September 13, 2017, 03:56:58 PM



After reading your post and looking at the schematic all I can say is BRILLIANT! I love it!
I agree that keeping it a (bundled) single mod with mod options sounds like the best solution.

The only thing I would maybe add is some kind of reference to the outside temperature for baths/ showers as well, since the last thing a pawn living in the desert would require or even want is a hot bath.  :D
So maybe the amount of hot water that is required could directly be linked to the outside temperature:

-everything above 35 degree (celsius): 0% meaning no hot water required for a bath/ shower that gives the best bath buff
-somewhere around 10 degree: 100%
-everything below -15 degree: 200%

And between those 3 reference points it scales smoothly depending on the outside temperature.
Oh and since baths/ showers in very hot environments wouldn't require hot water, maybe the best buff should be called "Shower/ Bath (Relaxing)" instead of "Hot", with the lesser buff being "Shower/ Bath (Cold)".
(When the attribute "relaxing" or "cold" is the first word, then some people might wonder why "Cold Shower" isn't a debuff, that's why I'd put it at the end.)
What do you think?

Dubwise

the buffs for it being hot or cold are based on if they have hypothermia or heatstroke right now so it should always make sense, i just had a thought i could expand it to be based of the hot and cold mood effects too, and it would just clear the mood effect, then its more accurate than just taking the ambient temp outside, because its based on their clothing and general exposure to temperature, it could be 50c outside but they could be working indoors in an air conditioned base, and then someone spends too long in a freezer with no shirt on and are actually shivering, then if they hop in the shower they can have a nice hot shower and it clears the mood debuff, obviously they wont seek out a shower if they are hot or cold, they already seek safe temperature, it would just be if they happen to use the shower.

So hot and cold wash buffs based on mood effects / hypothermia / heatstroke, they could be small like +3, mainly just the benefit of clearing the negative effect which can go down to -20.
Quality of the wash is based on how nice the facility is so -4 for buckets, nothing for showers, then +5 for baths and then maybe +10 for something even more lavish.
So if your pawn is cold and they have a hot bath then they would get +8 and clear all negatives from being dirty or cold
If they are at a comfortable temperature and just have a shower then they don't get any buffs, just clearing negative effects for being dirty
If they are freezing and using a filthy bucket of cold water to mop up with then things are grim. Sounds about right to me

Kori

You are right, it makes perfect sense when it's based on the mood instead of the outside temperature!

Still this would make the usage and benefit of hot water for washing very seldom in many situations, while most people would regard hot water as a bonus even when they aren't suffering from hypothermia. ;D
How about this:
-pawn is cold: 100% hot water is being used, +7 (2 feeling of relief + 5 comfort of hot water) and clear all negative effects
-pawn is comfortable: 50% hot water is being used, +5 (comfort of hot water) and clear negative effects for being dirty
-heatstroke: no hot water is being used, +2 (feeling of relief) and clear all negative effects

And then there is the additional score for the quality of the wash. -4 for buckets sounds good (so comfortable pawn gets -4 in total, heatstroke -2, hypothermia worse), but I wouldn't make the difference between showers and bathtubs too big, so that people don't stop using showers completely. The extra resource and space investment that you require for a bathtub over a shower is just too small to justify a lifelong difference of 5, maybe 3?

But even with a smaller difference I personally would never build a shower I think, and dividing them with additional researches also doesn't make sense...
So what if showering gets a different advantage instead: it could be less time consuming, taking only 50% of the time of a bath? (In that case +4 for baths would be reasonable too I guess...)
That way, pawns that are in a very good mood could prefer the faster shower (if available), while stressed pawns tend to take a more relaxing bath. If they have the choice. Then it would make sense to build both into your bathrooms!

All in all, the absolute maximum buffs would be
-10 for cold pawns (2 relief, 5 hot water, 3 bathtub) -> biggest buff but requires the most hot water
-8 for comfortable (5 hot water, 3 bathtub)
-5 for heatstroke (2 relief, 3 bathtub) -> smallest buff but doesn't require hot water at all
(or +1 for everything if baths take twice as long as showers and get the +4 buff)

I think it's okay that heatstroke gets the smallest buff, because not only it doesn't require any hot water, it also makes sense in a realistic way because the additional positive effects on the body (relaxing muscles etc) are just not there when taking a cold bath.
Also a relatively low value of 2 for relief might be enough imo, since it also clears the negative effects of hypothermia/ heatstroke as you already pointed out.


When you mentioned a better buff for something even more lavish:
How about some kind of soap or foam bath that can be produced in the drug lab and can be used to "refuel" the shower/ bathtub for a fixed amount of usages? The usage could be toggled via a button for every bathtub/ shower with the default being off, and it could provide a small (+5?) extra buff.
It should require some kind of research though and there could be maybe 3 different recipes that require different herbs and plants?

PS: A very small bonus for showers/ bathtubs made from steel over the cheaper wooden counterparts would be nice. Maybe slightly more beauty because they are more hygienic?

Dubwise

Don't worry about the hot water not being used, its always used regardless of the mood and its a capacity that you might need to monitor to prevent people getting mad but i don't want you to have to think about it too much, i could put in traits for those kinds of people that stay in the shower for 30 minutes and use up all the hot water, they would be the first to die when the food runs out.

Baths are already very different to showers in the current version, with the shower they wash until clean then exit which is very fast, but the bath job driver forces the pawn to stand and run the tap first, then lay in the bath for the full duration of the job even after they are already 100% clean, because its a luxury. Baths would also use a lot more hot water, and more water capacity on the grid.

The research is going to be completed by default for standard colonies, only tribals will have to do the research in the next patch.

For the +10 luxury buff i was thinking more like Jacuzzi's or a private high tech power showers, they would require extra power, water and sewage capacity. And i might remove woody from the stuff types for baths and toilets, then add a wooden bath to go with the wood latrines for low tech colonies

Kori

So it will always use the same amount of hot water, no matter if they are freezing to death or having a heatstroke?
My idea was that it would be nice if you would have to "pay" something in return for curing hypothermia in form of extra hot water, instead of getting it for free with the standard shower/ bath procedure.

What will be the difference for pawns at comfortable temperature (which is the case for probably 98% of the time when playing in tropical or temperate forests) if they have hot water or not? You said there wouldn't be any buffs or debuffs in this case, so what's the point of hot water then?  :-\

Canute

QuoteMy idea was that it would be nice if you would have to "pay" something in return for curing hypothermia in form of extra hot water,
Just ask a doctor, you shouldn't warm up someone with hypothermia to fast.
Sure you are geting a good mood boni when you take a warm bath/shower if you come from a cold. But thats not a therapy for hypothermia.

Kori

Quote from: Canute on September 14, 2017, 02:19:51 AM
Just ask a doctor

I'd rather not, he'd be too busy telling me that I shouldn't simply transplant organs, legs and noses from one person to another, treating the wounds with some herbs I found in my backyard (so that they can heal in less than one night) and feeding them inedible raw potatoes afterwards.

Trust me, the danger of some kind of shock because of getting warmed up too fast is the least of the Rimworld's people's problems. ;)

Dubwise

it doesn't currently cure hypothermia or heatstroke, it only reduces it slightly and gives the mood buff so they are still suffering from it and need to find safe temperature.

And to keep the hot water manageable in a large colony i need to make the range of variability in the usage quite small so its constant enough to not be a burden. The way i plan to do the hot water tank should introduce some slack, if it turns out in testing that i can increase the variability then i'll try it out.

Kori

Okay, keeping it managable without getting a burden makes sense. I'm sure the result will be great!
Good luck with the development! :)

sirgzu

is it normal that I can't remove nightsoil?
I put nightsoil on rough stone terrain and I expected I would be able to remove it like any other floor...

After adding <li>SmoothHard</li> to the nightsoil terrain affordance I can remove new tiles but not the old tiles that I built before making the change. I had a look in the savefile but I fear all maps are binary encoded, and I don't know how to edit that manually.

Is there a way I can turn these tiles back to their original value or some specific rough terrain type by any mean possible?

Canute

Nightsoil isn't a floor, it is a terrain like soil/richsoil.
And these terrain you can't remove either.
But if you got Fertile field mod, you can change the terrain type.

sirgzu

I see it more as a layer of top soil / compost.
It doesn't really make sense that you could put it on rough stone but can't remove it?
If it's not something you can remove then should you be allowed to build on stone in the first place?

Darkfirephoenix

Now I kinda think it's strange that there is no full "water cycle". Where does the water come from we are using? Is the biggest question I have :D

Hmmmmm... taking water from any water source would be fine for the "low tech" options (just refill that washbucket at the lake/stream), but the more advanced options... a water intake/pump/raincollector maybe (intake goes into a river, the pump may pump up groundwater)?
THAT would lead to options where there is no surface water... maybe taking snow/ice to refill the water tanks in frozen biomes, just chuck em into a dedicated melting tank/the normal water tank and the warmer the tank/room is the faster it melts (maybe also a option to heat it itself if you want)