magnetically driven engines

[Kegereneku]

I don't know for you but I think it would be much more fun to ask Jhon GaltMumble to explain us in details how BIG BROTHER keep every country in check, keep dissenting engineers quiet, disappear people who still want to make use of those clear generator, and prevent a black market of clean generator.

Or better : Send him a computer's fan and magnets and ask him to film it turning forever, even without powering a light, just it rotating (with the cable clearly not connected) would be ok. If he stream the video maybe we will even see the Men in Black break the door to arrest him.

[skullywag]

I don't know for you but I think it would be much more fun to ask Jhon GaltMumble to explain us in details how BIG BROTHER keep every country in check, keep dissenting engineers quiet, disappear people who still want to make use of those clear generator, and prevent a black market of clean generator.

Or better : Send him a computer's fan and magnets and ask him to film it turning forever, even without powering a light, just it rotating (with the cable clearly not connected) would be ok. If he stream the video maybe we will even see the Men in Black break the door to arrest him.

This post has no bearing on the threads topic whatsoever, keep the discussion on topic or dont post, first and final warning in this thread.

This goes for all. Myself and the other mods are fed up of having to step in on conversations like this, respect other peoples opinions and have civil discussions. Thankyou.

[RickyMartini]

How is this off topic skully, am I dreaming?

It's true and on topic. In general, if somebody want's to prove that something is possible, the more direct route would be to prove that it works in real life instead of proving it mathematically/conceptually.

Because really, if there really is an easy way to make an engine using magnets, every government would be all over it.

I think you need to reread Kegereneku's post.

[skullywag]

Its trying bait a response that will not end well for anyone, this happens constantly, now leave it, and move on.

[RickyMartini]

Of course it's trying to bait a response, we're discussing. All of us are baiting a response, otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion and it would end.

[skullywag]

Look Skissor stay out of it, I can see where this thread is going and it isnt gonna happen here. No more on this, continue discussing the subject.

[Fluffy (l2032)]

skully, frankly, you're wrong here.

ban me for this if you want, but the guy is clearly a crackpot. We've been giving him an equal podium to spread his opinions, but why? Why does a civil discussion mean we have to continue tolerating someone who's constantly and habitually bending rules, words and scientific theories?

Why can we not point out the logical flaws that are implicit to his argument? The tone may have been out of order, but the message is absolutely on topic; the suggestion that free energy devices are possible runs counter to the central tenets of physics, and moreover implies that there is a massive and all-powerful global conspiracy that is suppressing them - while at the same time leaving alone the people that post the youtube videos supposedly demonstrating said technology. Does that not seem rediculous to you?

If you're tired of these discussions, then ban political or even non-gaming/rimworld related topics altogether. If you're going to leave them around, then let's not pretend all points of view are equally valid - sometimes they're just wrong, and we should be allowed to point that out by any means necessary.

edited for clarityi]

[skullywag]

The tone is the point im disputing here, you dont have all the facts, you dont see what moderators see, leave this subject alone, the wording of my post could have been better ill admit, offtopic was the wrong word to use, inflammatory might have been better. Seriously no more on this, go back to discussing, this has gone waaaay off the rails now.

[Kegereneku]

The internet is full of "public demonstration" of miracle generator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU
Discussing "do the concept violate physics?" is not so different from discussing "why the scientific community do not react to existing machine violating physical laws?". Since we will keep seeing the arguments completed by appeal to (scientific & economic) authorities, it is legitimate to ask WHY we shouldn't trust them over "free-generator" proponents.
And it will be just as fun.

btw, I didn't planned to participate much, I don't have the time anymore to write Wall of Text. But I do want to say that any tone or off-remark can be inflammatory with an unfortunate public. I'd give examples but it would just worsen the off-off-topic.
No need to see more in what I said. I'm off.

[carbon]

To get back to the original topic, the ultimate problem is that moving something in a field (of any type) from point A, to point B, and then back to point A will always be energetically neutral regardless of the path traveled.

Similarly, altering a field around an object from state C, to state D and then back to state C, will also be energetically neutral.

---

So if you have a wheel that gains energy (KE + PE somehow increases) as you move 180° clockwise (A to B), moving another 180° either clockwise -or- counterclockwise (B to A) will require it to lose the same amount of energy it gained (assuming no friction). Regardless of how much it initially gains, the subsequent loss will be equal.

You can try to get fancier: move an external magnet (in essence a field) around your wheel (C to D), but you ultimately have to move it back to the starting point (D to C) to create any sort of cyclic "engine" and the two steps will always give/take equal and opposite amounts of energy.

Even if you put it together: alter the field so it moves the wheel (AC to BD); where do you go from there? There's ultimately only one place, that's back to start (BD to AC). Back to the energy you had originally. Nothing really generated or expended on the whole (best case scenario).

---

Going any deeper into the discussion generally requires an examination of the underlying math, which is really better handled by an introductory physics textbook than anything that could be provided here.

[Thyme]

That is yet another correct (simplified) elaboration on magnetic/conservative fields. I think the main problem with mumble² is that he doesn't accept this and rather states that there's energy stored within magnets.
We and him definitely do not speak the same language. That includes both his arguments and the way he participated in that discussion. I appreciate 14m1337s attempt at luring mumble² out, but it seems he has lost interest. Might be better that this thread has finally cooled down.

PS: Is it possible that mumble² meant electric motors all along? They have magnets in them :P

[Kegereneku]

PS: Is it possible that mumble² meant electric motors all along? They have magnets in them

I wouldn't exclude the possibility, but there is a lot of people who believe that magnet only "push" metal thing forward, and so that it could be used the same way water make a waterwheel turn.
Remember the meme "Magnet how do they work?"

[RickyMartini]

I appreciate 14m1337s attempt at luring mumble² out, but it seems he has lost interest. Might be better that this thread has finally cooled down.

Lol of course he lost interest, he got his ass handed to him by multiple people, there's nothing left to do in this thread other than further losing.

[forestfey]

...there's actually some things I'd like to say about... this (incl. timestamps etc.).

But as that could possibly violate the rules 1-3 AND 15, at least, I'm not sure if I want to risk that.
(As it is also full of fallacies. I know that!!!)



...without asking for consent? x)

And yes, I have washed my hands. Also, in any case, there should be gloves somewhere in this house. (But I'd actually prefer to retain the precision you have without gloves. Because of this, I decided voluntarily for that a couple of times during my studies. Keep in mind you need a circular chainsaw to learn about the inner anatomy of a crocodile...
I'm just worried, it could be taken waaaay too literal. And casualties is not what I have in mind! AT ALL!!!!)

[mumblemumble]

....bump

Keg, considering america will crush "illegally imported cars" for "emissions", for being "illegally imported", and tons of other things, that old antique war cannons can be seized from veterans for "security" and plenty of things have patents which aren't used (patent trolling...) Its conceivable to have such devices quietly restricted under any name of bureaucratic jargon. The amount of things in law you can get charged for, technically, is pretty astronomical, and up to the disgression of those who monitor you.

Carbon, I am assuming you are not factoring momentum into this. I mean, tops spin for several seconds after we let go, but this doesn't defy physics. The wheel would lose the FORCE behind it, for a very short gap, YES, but similar to a tether ball, it keeps spinning each time it is pushed.

thyme, energy being in, or not being in a magnet is irrelivant to the question at hand : the question is, is the exerting field of magnetic energy consistiently there and pushing in the intended direction? To which, testing will indicate, as far as we can perceptive, yes. Energy doesn't matter, so much as is it always pushing something magnetically effected by it within the field, which we know it does.

I guess you could compare it to a water wheel. Granted, water doesn't go all the way around the wheel, yet the wheel continued to turn. EVEN IF, you put the water wheel on the side of say, a cyclone of water, this would not keep the wheel from spinning, as the wheel moves in accordance to what part of the water (or magnetism) it interacts with.

Also, didn't "lose interest" nor get my ass handed to me, just got busy with other stuff

As lovely as you folks are, I have stuff outside this forum.