A hate of Infestations as is

[dv]

I hate infestations as they work now. I have to turn them off in the scenario editor every time. I like the idea, but its a system that punishes you for not making a mistake.

I disagree with this. You're arbitrarily calling mining "not a mistake" and using wood for walls "a mistake". Neither is or is not a mistake in general. It depends on your play style, the current events, the map, etc.

Wood is incredibly flammable and gives a beauty debuff because it's ugly. I'd say it's a mistake.

[schizmo]

I hate infestations as they work now. I have to turn them off in the scenario editor every time. I like the idea, but its a system that punishes you for not making a mistake.

I disagree with this. You're arbitrarily calling mining "not a mistake" and using wood for walls "a mistake". Neither is or is not a mistake in general. It depends on your play style, the current events, the map, etc.

Wood is incredibly flammable and gives a beauty debuff because it's ugly. I'd say it's a mistake.

I'm the first person to argue whether or not something is a "mistake" in terms of bad planning or poor decision making, but your statement is flawed for several reasons.

First, while you're correct that wood is obviously the most flammable (except floors which are never flammable), wood is actually one of the more beautiful options to build furniture with (walls have 0 impact on beauty BTW), beaten only by incrementally Marble and significantly by the precious materials (Gold, Silver, Jade) for obvious reasons. But the difference between wood and stone is often so minimal it could hardly be called "ugly" or a mistake to use either. Floors have a positive impact on beauty, but wood is neutral, so there's no "ugly" debuff coming from anything other than concrete. Simply put: Wood isn't ugly, but it is flammable.

Secondly, using wood, building in a mountain, decisions like these are trade-offs, not mistakes. On the one hand, wood items are flammable and have the lowest HP, but they are among the most beautiful and the quickest to build. This is a trade-off. Wood is also completely renewable, where as stones are finite.

Stones by contrast are non-flammable and have decent durability, but require more work to mine them AND cut them before they can be used for building, at which point they require the most work to build with. All in all the trade-off for non-flammability is a staggeringly long construction time from mining to crafting to constructing.

And then precious materials must be used at 20x the normal material rate, making them even MORE finite. But they are vastly more beautiful, so once again a trade-off, not necessarily a mistake.

The trade-off for building inside a mountain is the ever present danger of near instant combat from insects, but this is because all other forms of combat are rendered practically useless by the sheer defensive capabilities of mountains. It's supposed to be this way.

BUT I do agree that the very instant nature of infestations is a bit unfairly skewed against mountains. I would even argue that "seismic detection" is unnecessary research, if it were up to me the map would start shaking and the player would be alerted to an incoming infestation by a notification, giving them a moment to quickly draft everyone before the infestation begins.

I'm also one to argue that mountains should be made less impervious, to give a compelling reason to lighten the danger of infestations. But there will always need to be a trade-off.

[schizmo]

Oh also this game started as a combat simulator so yes, squad combat is the main way the game is designed to be played. This is changing gradually with suggestions and feedback, but you cannot fault the game for being what it is.

[Polder]

Infestations are necessary, or it would be far too easy to defend the colony.

[b0rsuk]

I'd prefer a "carrot" to encourage building outside of mountains, instead of a "stick" to punish building into mountains.

I prefer both.

No nerfing of infestation until there are more events which make mountain bases less desirable.

[Lightzy]

This entire thread is a waste of time and arguments.

You just need to install lightbulbs. Viola! no infestation!


Now I agree that it's the game's fault for not letting you know this, but yeah.
I'm fairly certain bugs don't spawn where's light. Never happened to me ever.

[Barazen]

...You just need to install lightbulbs....

Remarkably apt user name for your arguement there xD

To be honest i dont really deal with bugs, i find open plan town layouts for street fights are a pretty solid defence. The ai tends to split as each wants to break a random house and i can tolerate the rebuild process as i tend to build for redundancy.

This kind of layout i just cant figure out a mountain base that would play nice aesthetically and mining isn't really an issue as thanks to a16 my mining camps tend to be away from my "capitol"

[gchristopher]

Oh also this game started as a combat simulator so yes, squad combat is the main way the game is designed to be played. This is changing gradually with suggestions and feedback, but you cannot fault the game for being what it is.

Kinda true? I think an early announcement of this game was by Tynan over on the Dwarf Fortress forums. He describes it as "basically the sci-fi Dwarf Fortress." (With mild undeserved controversy since he was making a clone.) The major difference is that Tynan is trying to make a fun game, and Toady is trying to Simulate Every Thing, with DF the game as a byproduct of that quest. (And I'm happy to be able to give both of them money for doing it.)

Technically Dwarf Fortress started as a "combat simulator," too. The original Slaves to Armok I was just a thing where you could flail away fighting a plant and eventually die of exhaustion. Obviously it grew into a lot more of an interesting game, with all the crazy trap designs and dwarfputers and chaos.

Where I find fault is in players WANTING it to be just a squad combat game, and demanding changes that keep anyone else from playing it differently. People defending the current infestation mechanic frequently fall into this category. They view digging into mountains as a game experience they don't like ("too easy" or other reasons) and instead of just avoiding that game mechanic, they argue that we need infestations to keep anyone else from doing something they don't like.

[Swat_Raptor]

Where I find fault is in players WANTING it to be just a squad combat game, and demanding changes that keep anyone else from playing it differently.

I think your miss-representing people with this statement. I havn't really seen anyone argue that the Squad combat aspect should be the principle form of defense used in any situation. Not saying that there are not people who think that aspect should be important but that this is the principle idea of people who are defending infestations, I would disagree.

The reason that infestations are in is because there should be ever present danger of a variety of sources with any route you take with developing your colony, mountain or not, Since building into a mountain makes events such as drop pods and sieges not nearly as deadly well this begins to break the Ever present danger rule and thus infestations are introduced to help (with some faults) balance out the lack of danger in mountains. People who say that there should be NO infestations without offering some kinda of counter offer I would say border on being guilty of wanting mountains to turn into some kind a safe zone which should not exist on Rimworld.

I'm not saying Infestations are a good mechanic (i'm kinda neutral on them as a whole) but their presence is preferable to their absence because without them then mountains becomes this area where you basically take almost all challenge away from Seiges and Drop pods, as well as infestations.

[JuicyPVP]

This entire thread is a waste of time and arguments.

You just need to install lightbulbs. Viola! no infestation!


Now I agree that it's the game's fault for not letting you know this, but yeah.
I'm fairly certain bugs don't spawn where's light. Never happened to me ever.

This just isn't true. I've had them spawn if a fully illuminated hospital, a dark fridge, and a lit up stockpile. They do spawn with regular lamps.

[Lightzy]

That's strange, I could have sworn tynan himself posted that infestations happen in darkened areas.

Perhaps it changed?
Still never seen it happen though.

[JuicyPVP]

That's strange, I could have sworn tynan himself posted that infestations happen in darkened areas.

Perhaps it changed?
Still never seen it happen though.

Lamps provide 50% light. Sunlamps 100%. The bugs don't spawn in 100%. So you'd need sunlamps all over your base (anyone have that kind of power supply?). Even stacking reg lamps doesn't make light more than 50% (put 4 in an 8x8 dark room to test- light level was still 50%).

[Lightzy]

I'll test it out some more.
I have a mountain base all lit with regular lamps and never got a single infestation, almost end-game. Corridors are well lit, large recroom/diningroom have 8 lamps each.

I'll start a new colony now.
Been playing more with flatlands tribals lately though. A bit tougher.

[Calahan]

Light affects the probability of an infestation spawning, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely. If you have never had an infestation in a lit area before then you have just been lucky (the storyteller also plays a part, as on lower levels infestation are less likely to occur to begin with, meaning less occasions when you need to be lucky).

[SangoProductions]

Light affects the probability of an infestation spawning, but it doesn't eliminate it entirely. If you have never had an infestation in a lit area before then you have just been lucky (the storyteller also plays a part, as on lower levels infestation are less likely to occur to begin with, meaning less occasions when you need to be lucky).

Uh...No. Light does not affect the probability of an infestation. It does remove one square where it can spawn, because something's taking up the space, which affects the chance of the room getting hit (overall), but that's because of the lamp, not the light. 2 lamps reduce the chance the same as having a bed in the room.