Giving advantage to spaced out colony layouts

[Hieronymous Alloy]

Towns are actually a decent way to build a fort. Hallways and and rooms can be streets and buildings just as easily, and streets and buildings with door peeking is a great way to defend a colony.

The best layout right now is probably what I've seen called the "polis" layout -- a central plaza, surrounded by workshops, with an outer rim of bedrooms, and long straight hallways as firing zones.

[JuicyPVP]

I looked up some quick figures. Concrete doesn't start to lose its structure till 800f+. That's really, really hot. Like... all your people can't even go In to fight the fire at that point. And thats just where it starts to lose structure, minuscule  amounts. Not where it crumbles. A few sites are stating 1500c for a crumbling temp of concrete and 2000c for melting stone. The fire thing really has to do with this, which I tried to articulate, but I might not have. What fuel, in a stone buidling, will burn until the fire gets to 800f? Even If people only have a wood table and chairs... that's not heating a room to 800f. So there is a disconnect between ignition, even in a wood table/bed, and 800f where stone would start to collapse. Like- what is burning to get the room/flame that hot? It's not that they are impervious to fire- it's that getting a fire hot enough to destroy them is not very realistic if there is no substantial fuel sorce.

Also, making fires more prevalent will result in players taking the path of least resistance - which isn't a town type base. It's fire poppers. Fire poppers in every room. Is likely MUCH cheaper than spending 3-4x on building materials by no shared walls, and then needing to cool/heat everything seperate.

I like the peaceful sleep buff- no shared walls for a room type thing.

[JuicyPVP]

For reference to us Americans. 1500c is 2700f+ that's really hot. And 800f is 400c+. Very hot numbers.

[Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, stone structures in this game should definitely be proof against random fires.

Maybe like concentrated energy weapons or something but that's different. And stone does take damage from charge rifles.

[schizmo]

Tempuratures in Rimworld are capable of reaching a maximum temperature of 3632F in sealed rooms so it's certainly within the scope of possibility, the question is whether or not items will burn in a manner that this is possible. So I tested it.

In Dev mode I created my standard 13x13 wall dining hall which contains 4 long tables and 16 dining chairs, plus a light in the center. I tested with wood and plasteel, both resulted in a fire that reached the maximum room temperature, though it's worth noting that while wood reached it's maximum temperature faster due to the flammability of wood, plasteel held it's maximum temperature longer and would surely do more damage to stone walls due to increased exposure.

The trouble is, this is a fire operating in a vacuum. Pawn intervention is usually quick enough to mitigate this, unless it happens far away or during battle, or in multiple places at once like if an enemy has an incendiary launcher or there is a lightning storm, but those are more likely to happen outside than in.

Still, it's within the realm of possibility, but it's unlikely to happen on it's own, I feel.

[Hieronymous Alloy]

I'd argue that's more an error in the room temperature calculations than an error in the destructibility of stone. Realistically speaking a simple wood fire shouldn't get that hot, it should take like a designed furnace.

[schizmo]

I'd argue that's more an error in the room temperature calculations than an error in the destructibility of stone. Realistically speaking a simple wood fire shouldn't get that hot, it should take like a designed furnace.

According to this link: https://skysaver.com/blog/how-hot-is-fire/ wood can burn as hot as 3590 F, but that of course does not mean that the room would get that hot, it merely means that fire itself is that hot. Still, a dog or a baby left in a sealed car on a moderately warm day can easily experience temperatures vastly higher than what is recorded outside, because heat is trapped within a structure. A fire in a building or room could reach some pretty decent temperatures. Though like you I don't know if they would quite reach the temperatures listed in the game.

Still they would reach temperatures that are immediately and overwhelmingly dangerous to pawns, so fire fighting inside of a building should probably be more dangerous which would adversely affect larger structures. Not exactly a buff for villages, though, it's still a debuff for compounds and mountain bases, so I wouldn't exactly champion that idea myself.

[Hieronymous Alloy]

I'd argue that's more an error in the room temperature calculations than an error in the destructibility of stone. Realistically speaking a simple wood fire shouldn't get that hot, it should take like a designed furnace.

According to this link: https://skysaver.com/blog/how-hot-is-fire/ wood can burn as hot as 3590 F, but that of course does not mean that the room would get that hot, it merely means that fire itself is that hot. Still, a dog or a baby left in a sealed car on a moderately warm day can easily experience temperatures vastly higher than what is recorded outside, because heat is trapped within a structure. A fire in a building or room could reach some pretty decent temperatures. Though like you I don't know if they would quite reach the temperatures listed in the game.

Still they would reach temperatures that are immediately and overwhelmingly dangerous to pawns, so fire fighting inside of a building should probably be more dangerous which would adversely affect larger structures. Not exactly a buff for villages, though, it's still a debuff for compounds and mountain bases, so I wouldn't exactly champion that idea myself.

Oh right wood fires can reach very high temperatures but you have to like stack the firewood for optimal burning or use a furnace or something to get the temperatures that high. As the article you link points out, a typical high rise building fire doesn't get much above 1000 degrees fahrenheit. 3500 F is around the maximum temperature for a wood charcoal fire in a designed furnace with perfect airflow (source: http://rebuildingcivilization.com/content/how-hot-can-you-get-coal-fired-forge).

There's a reason people use concrete and stone when they want to build fireproof buildings: they work, they're pretty much invulnerable to any common fire.

Now again, start talking like sci-fi weapons sure they'll be damaged by burning, and I could even see stone walls taking slight damage from nearby fires if especially intense -- stuff doesn't have to catch fire to get warped or cracked from heat. But realistically no random fire is going to make them catch fire.

[Thane]

Granted. Rocks don't melt at common game temps. I was more talking heat stress, not melting though.

Then again we are using granite and slate by and large two rocks whose origins are in heat and pressure. We could make an argument for the others though being either sedimentary or marble.

Smoke inhalation would be the wiser move. Oh and a cap for indoor temps or otherwise a rework.

[SangoProductions]

All I have to say is that these are the best insulated stone structures I've seen.

[Lightzy]

Because I have built one, I'll tell you that if you build a stone pizza oven, you can reach temperatures that burn the pizza to a blackened crisp in about 30 seconds if you're not careful in maintaining the right temp.
That's just with wood and a structure to seal in the temp, and a little airflow.

If you build it with the wrong kind of bricks, it explodes. You need special fireproof materials. Not the kind you use for regular building.

A fire is a deadly thing, even just the smoke. So more spaced out buildings are good that way.
It's also one of the reasons you have streets to begin with. designed with combating fire in mind.


But that's just one advantage to another type of layout. Surely there are a lot more. Why are cities designed the way they are? And tribal villages with separate huts? They all have a dispersed layout with spaces in between.

[schizmo]

I think stone tiles should offer a modest speed boost and priority to pathfinding as a result. This would probably benefit all types of structures but villages with paths and roads would especially benefit

[b0rsuk]

There are a few reasons why "houses" layout are not feasible:
- temperature control, sharing heaters/coolers by using vents
- houses cost more wall resources because two rooms don't share a wall
- vulnerability to manhunters. This is a big one. A cabin typically doesn't have its own food storage, joy room, or even table.
- prison breaks are worse
- TRAVEL TIMES
- a hut is easily surrounded, but a termite mound colony has retreat routes

Advantages
+ remarkable resistance to drop pods
+ resistance to mortars
+ resistance to fire (not a big deal because stone is the go-to material, and no floor burns)
+ sappers are pointless

Another reason why spaced out villages are bad is that guns are quite puny in Rimworld. Open spaces are not death zones, in most cases you can't kill animals or humans before they cross the empty space. Even masters of Shooting can't put enough lead in targets, so people rely on volume of fire, Triggerhappy, etc. Even a hit might just blow off an ear. Careful shooter with a sniper rifle won't score more headshots.

I think where it differs from real life the most is that our houses are very rarely just bricks and concrete. We have wooden furniture, plastic, cloth carpets, curtains, and so on. Rimworld rooms are mostly bare floor. Also, structures collapse when heat damages them, but it's impossible to represent in 2D.

I prefer rude people with good ideas, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and critical thinking than polite dimwits. Linus Torvalds > Bambi . https://www.wired.com/2012/06/torvalds-nvidia-linux/

[harpadarpa]

In rim world the roof is sheet steel.. there is literally no fuel to be burnt in most people's structures.

You are suggesting to nerf the common play style to suit your personal liking. That's fine. But you have to expect resistance from the 80% of players who run the play style you want nerfed... I'm not trolling you. Lol.

I dunno. I think the thing I suggested was something that could be well taken into account, without necessarily nerfing the big complex idea. Places where colonists could take long walks around the home zone, without having to loop their route. That would be an interesting thing to take into account when building either a complex or a town. Whether it be interlocking hallways, or bigger towns. Either could work.

[Lightzy]

Borsuk, yeah, there's a lot of problems with making anything other than a single megacomplex. I listed them too in the second post I think. Many, many problems.
And that's fine, but here's a place for you to come out with ideas on how to make other layouts feasible, by whatever means.

So I suggested more realistic fire simulation with buildings collapsing, fire spreading inside ridiculously fast and very hot, and smoke darkening everything and killing people.
which is fun.
You can still put it out, but if you don't manage to do that, it'll destroy all or most of your complex.

Other ideas included... well... I'm not sure actually. Are there other ideas?


LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE BTW, so true.