New power options

[Sola]

Fission reactor: (very) slowly eats uranium akin to a fueled reactor, produces power and nuclear waste.
Fusion reactor:  generates uranium from nuclear waste, does not produce power.  Maybe uses Chemfuel and about half the power of a fission reactor to operate.
Cold fusion (research): Fusion reactors now generate power, instead of consuming it.

The idea is that we currently use nuclear fission and u-238 (uranium) to generate power. The fission results in two different isotopes (of which I cannot remember the names).  Fusion reactions require a great deal of energy, but would be able to recombine the two isotopes back into uranium.  Cold fusion (fusion reactions that don't require a catalyst) is a mystery in the real world, but it's not hard to believe that spacer-level tech would have it figured out.

At first - A fission reactor to generate power.
Later - A fission reactor and a fusion reactor to generate power and to keep your uranium from dwindling, at the cost of chemfuel.  In essence, a more advanced fueled generator.
In the end - A fission and a fusion reactor generating much more power than solar panels and wind turbines that no longer requires resources to operate.

Naturally, a reliable, infinite, self sustaining source of power like this would be unbalanced.  So, perhaps it should require checkups from your scientists occasionally to prevent another Chernobyl?  A scientist could spend an amount of time, modified by research skill, to make sure all the knobs and buttons are pointed the right way.  Say... a new variable named "Stability".

Researcher goes in, restores stability, then runs off to do other things.  At 0 stability, kaboom.

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Also, a tech to mitigate the damage caused by Zzzt!,  Circuit breakers/surge protectors.  When the power fault happens, a circuit breaker/surge protector can trip (switch off), if it's connected to the batteries, and anyone capable of flicking can go turn it back on.  Whether or not this would be a universal upgrade, or another building, or what is entirely dependent on how much code you feel like writing.

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Finally, things that generate heat take a lot of energy (toasters, ACs, heaters, etc.).  A cheater's method is to compare how much heat is being generated to how much energy is being consumed.  As such, desk lamps are using a disproportionately high amount, I think.  It's fine if a sunlamp uses a ton, because reasons, but a 40 watt bulb should not be using half the energy of an air conditioner.

The only thing desk lamps are good for is preventing a mood debuff, right?  Why not tone it down from 75 to 25?  ACs keep you alive during heat waves and store food forever, which is decidedly indispensable.  Desk lamps prevent the "in darkness" penalty, which is generally ignored for a good portion of the game.

[Thyme]

First: Conservation of energy. You can't split atoms, glue them back together and have a positive balance of energy. Does apply to real life and RimWorld.
Second: That's not how Fusion works. The balance of energy will only be positive if you combine elements lighter than iron (fission is the other way: split elements heavier than iron).
Third: Cold fusion is no mystery here on earth. It simply doesn't work. Even spacer tech is unlikely to change that. Quantum mechanics is a b!/€#.

Fission reactors might be a nice addition, at a low cost of uranium, with or without waste (you know, spacer tech found a way around that). Same goes for Fusion reactors, but definitely for power production and with even higher technological requirements.
Balancing is a big issue here, because both technologies have a tremendous energy output. Tynan might come up with something in A17, indicated by a poll about solar/wind.

[Pushover]

One idea for a lategame energy structure would be an indoor reactor that shuts down if outdoors, and pushes out a TON of heat while providing a lot of power. This would become a centerpiece in a lategame base, but you would need to plan accordingly, or else deal with superhot rooms and fires from the heat this pushes out. Have it shut down (explosively) at ~500C to prevent someone from stuffing it in a building and ignoring it. Doesn't really unbalance Ice Sheets either, since by that point in the game, indoor heating is solved.

Part of the problem is that there just isn't a massive demand for power lategame. 3 Geothermal Plants will power just about everything that isn't a turret or sunlamp.

The other issue is that most of these are not practical for the 'base' game, since once you have a pile of Uranium floating around, you can just build the ship and leave.

[Sola]

First: Conservation of energy. You can't split atoms, glue them back together and have a positive balance of energy. Does apply to real life and RimWorld.

Of course not.  The law of conservation of matter and energy sees to that.  However, Rimworld has the benefits of being based in science fiction.  Master of Orion has Thorium fuel cells, which are self replenishing, allowing ships to travel over infinite distances, and it's still lauded as the gold standard of 4X games. 

"Because Spacers" is an acceptable explanation, and would not be unprecedented.  The ship reactor generates 1000W energy forever (or at least, thousands of years, as referenced by the credits screen after game completion), and requires zero input from the player after creation.

One idea for a lategame energy structure would be an indoor reactor that shuts down if outdoors, and pushes out a TON of heat while providing a lot of power. This would become a centerpiece in a lategame base, but you would need to plan accordingly, or else deal with superhot rooms and fires from the heat this pushes out. Have it shut down (explosively) at ~500C to prevent someone from stuffing it in a building and ignoring it. Doesn't really unbalance Ice Sheets either, since by that point in the game, indoor heating is solved.

Put it in its own building, with many vents leading outside.

Part of the problem is that there just isn't a massive demand for power lategame. 3 Geothermal Plants will power just about everything that isn't a turret or sunlamp.

Unless you're playing on a map with no geothermal vents.

The other issue is that most of these are not practical for the 'base' game, since once you have a pile of Uranium floating around, you can just build the ship and leave.

Uranium is not the only limiting factor in game completion.  Research, plasteel, gold, and components are all required as well.  Uranium can be smelted off melee weapons and purchased from traders long before the ship is buildable.  Additionally, you might not want to leave the planet.  Maybe you want to keep your sim-city colony going forever?

[RolanDecoy]

I like the idea of a Fission Reactor, and I totally agree with wanting to settle, with the ability to say 'stop' at any time and leave for space.
I can even get behind the idea of what's called a breeder reactor, although in reality that's just another fission reactor (the neutrons I think it was from the new fuel rods are split from the nucleus and some are caught by the spent fuel rod sitting next to it in the reaction chamber, 'repairing' it's nuclei). But yes, that would require a lot of energy instead of producing any.

The problem I'm having is two-fold;
First off, the balancing. Free energy is essentially what you are suggesting, just more of it and as offset more dangerous, with potentially a new element of radiation. Although I'm not against the danger of radiation, there are a lot less complicated ways of introducing that without resorting to nuclear reactors, and the geothermal generator already provides a safer option. If there is no geyser in your area, you can move. Although I would rather see the ability to have more than 1 settlement (as far as I have played), and maybe something like item sized batteries of sorts to allow transport. Brainfart...

Secondly, I don't think that's how nuclear physics work... You can't split a nucleus and put it back together with less parts, and expect the same output as input. Apart from preservation of energy (energy), you're still short on building blocks (mass). You'll still need a catalyst (the neutrons that you took out in the fission) in the fusion step...realistically speaking (and from my limited understanding on the subject, demonstrated by my potential confusion between neutrons and protons). Another point that is raised in this, is the potential to 'produce' uranium. Don't know, but I can see how that could become a potential problem. In essence you'd have a replicator.

I don't mind the idea in a fictional universe, but there is a basis of realism in the game that I feel would be compromised.

On a different note, heaters don't ask that much (about as much as a lamp). If you have them running at 'high' they'll consume 175 W, but at low they'll consume 70 W, so it's often better to have 2 where 1 was enough, and save 35 W. That's a lamp for each 4 heaters. I'm sorry, but I just think it's strange you brought this up because if these values cause you concern, then I think you have other problems. Might want to look how to make your base / settlement more efficient. Space out the heaters, have a few more, use vents or let people leave certain doors open, etc.

I've ran a Sun Lamp, 8 Hydroponics basins, 10 heaters, an electric stove, electric tailor bench, blast furnace, 4 lamps and 3 powered doors on 3 solar panels and 2 wind turbines (and 5 batteries) on an ice sheet at -50 (and at those temperatures you don't need an air conditioner, just a vent). With no wind and everything turned on and actively being used I was still charging the batteries. Power is not a problem in this game (at least not after a day or 3, or at least it doesn't have to be) ;-D

There are a lot of options before changing the game is all I'm saying :-p

[Thyme]

RimWorld is reasonable science fiction, which is different to StarTrek/Star Wars where you have FTL drives and such. If you don't accept that, there's still the discrepance with gameplay. Free and reliable energy needs offsets (see geothermal generators for reference).

PS: I dunno how the average RimWorld player has enough power with 3 geothermal generators. My last run was very power conservative with like 10 lamps, no turrets, 12 freezer units, one bench each and already needed that.

[Sola]

Free and reliable energy needs offsets (see geothermal generators for reference).

First off, the balancing. Free energy is essentially what you are suggesting, just more of it and as offset more dangerous,.

Uh.. guys?


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As for the suggestion reason in the first place, it's not an issue of "ZOMG I NEED THIS 2 BALANCE GAME!", simply a, "Hey, do you need ideas to throw more stuff in?".  I've got quite the wind farm going on in my -220F extreme sea ice game posted by Rhadamant.

[RolanDecoy]

Well there's your problem right there, look at the volume of air you're trying to heat (and how little of that space is actually in use) :-p

Look, I get it, and even IF it's implemented there is no pressure on me to actually use it, and might even be fun to fool around with it. It's just don't see the power problem you seem to, or at least not as a power problem, but rather a consumption problem.

As for that Wiki reference to the ship generator, it still provides less power per tile than wind turbines, solar panels and the geothermal generator, at higher cost (resources just being one of them), especially concidering you can place solar panels under wind turbines and they will still work 100% (there just can't be a roof or other high object in the way).

PS: I dunno how the average RimWorld player has enough power with 3 geothermal generators. My last run was very power conservative with like 10 lamps, no turrets, 12 freezer units, one bench each and already needed that.

Did you have 12 different freezers? Did you set them to -5 or -50? You didn't forget they produce heat as well as move it, right? Did you try using an airlock kind of construction to prevent most of the cold air from escaping when opening the door? You didn't use Sun lamps, did you (the difference in coverage vs consumption compared to normal lamps is conciderable)?

Point is, I get why someone would want so much energy, but I don't get why they would need it. I mean look at the image above and understand there could have been solar panels under those wind turbines... Add a battery for every 3 ~ 4 solar panels and you're set, even for solar eclipses... And that's not taking into account the use of parka's and tueqe's??... those warm hat things. You don't even need any heaters (in fact people will start complaining because of them, because they'll start to feel hot and sweating and generally uncomfortable) unless it's colder than -50.

If the satisfaction of the people is a problem, everybody uses 240 meals a year (4 a day, max assuming constant vomiting, 15 days a season, 4 seasons a year) / 10 meals per stack is 24 stacks per person for survival. Sell anything that you don't need and put silver flooring in, and give the a big silver and gold bed to sleep in. Whatever debuff they get will be well compensated by their satisfaction. And put a stool or chair on the circle in front of whatever machine they are supposed to operate to further that satisfaction (goes to comfort level).

Sorry, this is beginning to feel like a tutorial, I'll be quiet now...

[Sola]

I feel I'm not articulating my point well.  I'm not asking for this as a result of having problems completing this game.  I am not.  I do not "have a power problem".  I play this game on extreme, I play challenge modes, and I quite enjoy the game as it is.

I did not create this topic to ask for advice on how to play my four-years-long-sea-ice-south-pole-minimum-temperature-permanent-cold-snap-extreme-difficulty-permadeath game, nor am I asking for advice on how to build my base.

I saw a hole (end game research and buildings not-named ship techs), and came up with an idea for a peg that could be put in that hole.  That is all.

[RolanDecoy]

Okay, well, awesome then ;-D

Does that mean I still have to correct myself when I said heaters use 70 W at low when they in fact only use 18 W? :-p

[Thyme]

New late-game power production is a good idea, I was merely suggesting corrections that I deemed necessary. The ship generator is hardly an option due to its exorbitant price.

12 freezer units means 12 air conditioners. Most of them for the walk-in freezer (huge), set to -6°C, some to cool the bedrooms. 3 geothermals also meant the equivalent, I actually have two. Rolan, do you know that solar panels don't produce as much power in the north due to shorter days? Sola didn't build them for a reason.

[RolanDecoy]

I understand, but you have to admit, if you're that far up north, and you need to cool down rooms...well, let's just move on.

[Lubricus]

I hope the Rimushima mod will be updated to A16
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=25124.0

[RolanDecoy]

Apart from the power needs, that is actually something I'd want to look into...but I've had the experience that playing with mods (too soon) kind of kills the original experience...

[lighthoof]

Nice one , but I'd like to add my few cents.
First option is to just add a fission reactor, that would consume uranium and would have to be stopped and reloaded with fuel from time to time.
Second one, if you like a more complicated approach, would be not to call some magic waste restoration device a "fusion reactor", but to split fission reactors into two architectures.
LWFR (light water fission reactor) would be not as hard to research, but would need enriched uranium to operate. This enriched uranium will have to be produced separately and would transform into transuranium waste. We can even add a bit more challange and realism by making the waste be approx 95% of the amount of enriched uranium ).
Second reactor type - FFR (fast fission reactor) would need much more research to be done, but will be able to consume regular uranium and transuranium waste at a much lower rate and produce much less waste (another type of waste , unusable in any way).
Some additional difficulties may be added , like heat management problem and maintenance for these reactors, but that is purely on the balance side of the issue.

RimWorld is reasonable science fiction, which is different to StarTrek/Star Wars where you have FTL drives and such. If you don't accept that, there's still the discrepance with gameplay. Free and reliable energy needs offsets (see geothermal generators for reference).

Please do not ever compare ST to SW. You should check what a warp drive is and how a concept of Alcubierre drive works its way into our physics.