lacking signal-channels for social cues: explicitness VS implicitness

[forestfey]

Right, after yesterday's incident and the wise closure of the thread, the gears in my probably slightly differently wired head seemed to be relentlessly determined to not let me sleep properly and instead, go over this again an again. So the following is possibly biased by a specific, sore-eyed grumpyness most of you probably are familiar with yourself. Please take that into account before giving in to any spontaneous reaction to this. I would be grateful. Thanks.

It's a bit hard to find a start, because it's such an abstract meta-topic...

We all know this community is comprised of people from most different background, nationalities and... languages. You also might be aware of the hypothesis (?Theory? Fact? Study-Result?), that the type of language you use at a given moment also shapes the way you think, in terms of setting perceptional focus points at least. Obviously, the general agreement or consensus here was English. Cool, that is easily accessible for many folks.
But it also means that ALL of our different language-backgrounds have to be brought to the smallest, common denominator. This is difficult to do without occasional misunderstandings (content person VS content-person, anyone?^^), completely normal thing.

There is just a few thing about this, I'd like to remind the community of:
In written communication, the form that is most abundant on the interweebs, there is a lack of certain "signalling channels" humans have for picking up social cues IRL.
Yes, silly, I mean posture and facial expressions. Smileys/Emoticons can't make up for this, especially since they are consciously chosen and not involuntary "tells" that play a major role in discerning, interpreting the intentions and motivation of my counterpart during a social exchange.

Now, add to this the additional level of having different cultural backgrounds, with according phrases/ figures of speech and thought-patterns. Misunderstandings are preprogrammed, inevitably.

And then there's also people that are wired differently and might have major difficulties with all this in general (the Autism-Spectrum-Disorders in this case)...

I myself have sometimes trouble with differentiating explicit- and implicitness, even in my native tongue German. It's even harder in English, and only a lot of practice and open communication paired with the preparedness to admit own mistakes, can overcome this imho. But only if all participants of the exchange commit themselves to these principles...

It can be rather confusing when you realize that in some, specific cases, behaviors that are usually labelled as asocial can become the opposite. You might not be able to tell which is which in what situation. Or at least not be able to tell with the same accuracy "neurotypical" persons so heavily rely on and obviously take for granted.

To demonstrate the confusion-possibilities if you are insecure about how all this interhuman-friendship-stuff works at all, let me give you an example where "racist explicitness" may be acceptable or even facilitated:



Now, imagine you feel like some sort of alien on a research-expedition to earth, studying human behaviour with the assumed goal not to be recognized as the alien that you are... How sure can you be to put stuff into the correct context, 3 of 10 cases, more, or less? And then successfully apply what you think you have learned about these strange, almost hairless, bipedal mammals that seem to be so preoccupied with maintaining specific personality-images of themselves, too...
Does that make any sense?

I know this reads like a "check-your privilege"-rant, and to some degree, admittedly, it really is.
Believe me, 2 or 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have expected at all to EVER get into a position where I actually could want to hold one! And now look at me...

I would also recommend to read this comparably short and easygoing paper I had already linked in the ominous thread yesterday, it's about cooperation, its evolutionary stability under which circumstances and socio-corrective punishment-systems in different types of society: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/365/1553/2699.short (no paywall!)

-I have met the cleanerfish-man Mr. Bshary (one of the authors) personally, and came to think that he is a person with one of the most calm vibes I have ever encountered, just a personal take.
If you find this shit interesting and would like to know more, drop me a PM and I will dig into my shamefully neglected archives to recollect my other favourite papers and reviews regarding cooperation, audience-effects and "lying".
Cheers.

[forestfey]

 (I decided to make this post separate, so the mods have an easier decision to censor this part, delete it or whatever if they think it's called for. I'm OK with that, but would then appreciate a factual explanation via PM or similar means to avoid/prevent misunderstandings)

I have to admit, that it didn't feel good that my offer of mediation didn't even get acknowledged at all. I didn't do it because I get a rush from it or anything, rather the opposite is true. But I am willing to take on a role that "fate" seems to be allocating to me repeatedly without any conscious effort from my side. For THIS awesome game that connects us all.
It's quite a bummer when you catch yourself coming to the conclusion, that such efforts are neither warranted, nor appreciated or even wanted here. I don't think that is what was intended, but there is a little grief about this inside me, yeah.
Also about the "ganging-up" I suppose to have observed gaining more traction at the end of the thread. Especially since I have a subtle feeling of responsibility; That my firstly uttered perspective on the whole thing added to this dynamic... As if I had given another piece of gory cloth to the bloodhounds for finding a trace of the escaped convict. Not good.

And if anyone thinks now, I'm just doing this just because I am personally butthurt and an attention-whore or something: Go on, suit and please yourself. I don't care anymore, at least that much.

At the moment I'm trying to adopt an approach of "radical honesty", as I, in agreement with the book's author, think, such an extreme mentality-revolution is the only thing we can hope for to offer our species at least a CHANCE of surviving the next 1-5 centuries on this planet.
Earth will be fine without us, but we won't be so fine if the planet stops providing suitable habitat for vertebrates or even multicellular organisms in general. It's a bleak prospect, and after actually having "given up humanity as a whole" last year, it's a quite refreshing take to see, feel a real opportunity for change (I don't know exactly why, but somehow I attribute parts of this personal mentality-change also to interactions with this community. I thought you should know that.)

So, please: Stop withholding info from your conspecifics. It's killing us all.

And brace yourselves... Yes, I will do my best to cut an even thicker slice from this baloney for myself, too. Promise. YUM!

[forestfey]

*looks at her pointy poking-stick, then to the sea of waving grass, trying to fathom if some blades move differently from the others, hinting on the critters moving underneath...
...Looks back to her pokey-stick and tosses it away*
I know you are there...
And I'm starting to make assumptions about what's going in the background, because I know I don't have ALL the information. ...I guess you know what can happen if you leave assumptions run wild for too long: At some point, they become a conviction that's very hard to change again.

It's a delicate matter, allright. And the example I chose was a very peculiar one, agreed. 
*points to the stick, now on the ground* On purpose.
(I have something like that going on with my best-friend-since-Kindergarten who is from Hong Kong, so we have established that boundary long ago)

Maybe... you sense my emotional investment and have possibly made your homework about learning and operant conditioning; Don't want to react in a bad, unreflected way that has a good chance to find a rather quick entry into my long-term-memory.
Uhm... Thanks? That is very thoughtful if the case^^

Look, I am not an activist or anything. Actually, quite a nobody, whose words don't carry much weight on the web at all, afaik. A nobody, who sometimes likes to make an appeal to authority, too. But I think we all have our one favourite fallacy we repeatedly fall for, even if we are so convinced to apply critical thinking all the time to even ourselves(!!!).
So, I am deeply conflicted, because I don't identify myself as a SJW or something like that at all (talking about maintained self-images and stuff?!). In fact, I tend to laugh at or feel sorry for them.

I have seen by now, that this community is actually aware of the pitfalls of language and different backgrounds, semiosis VS semantics and so on. Which I find is a very good thing in general, really! That's something you don't have everywhere...
You probably don't know how to properly deal with this (or me), and given the things that have already happened, I can understand the caution. Absolutely.

So let me make clear again: I want to steer this boat safely (back) into harbour.
And if there's one thing I am sure I don't want, it's to report this anywhere, where it could be abused to make some sort of hit-piece, if that's what you're afraid of.
I don't have all the information, that would be a preposterously silly thing to do.

Oh, right, and: I don't feel offended or something. Even if, would that be a truly valid justification for anything?

____________

Perhaps I am violating the "rules of internet" with this in a way any lawyer would either dream of or turn away from disgustedly... If that's your conclusion, or if this is all too "nosy" and you consider me just being a very sophisticated troll that's not to be fed at all, be done with it and delete all this shit. No reasons asked, I will know then. (Still, keep in mind what I wrote about operant conditioning, emotional investment and LT-memory... It's possible I might decide to voluntary leave this place again if that happens, but I surely will stop to "defend" this game and community in public.)

But, if I'm not blowing this way out of proportion, these are my basic assumptions about what could be going on. You now have a chance to correct them.

*paints a bull's eye on her chest* ... Perhaps this makes it easier?

(I actually started to write this hours ago, so it's an n-th iteration of the original in terms of detailed phrasing, choice of vocabulary, order of sentences and so on. I'm doing my very best trying to communicate as clearly as I can... But here, I lack certain signalling-channels to even have a chance to make a convincingly faithful or honest impression... Thus, the circle closes...)

[skullywag]

Ive tried to read this but honestly it was hard. However i did catch the point about you feeling like your offer of mediation was ignored and you didnt like that, ill be honest, it wasnt your place to offer it so it definitely should not make you feel bad that it was ignored, the moderators/admins/Tynan were dealing with the issue and we didnt need help from anyone outside of that circle. If ANYONE would have made the same offer it wouldnt have been taken up, it was being dealt with, even the moderators (myself included) were taken out of the equation due to it reaching Tynan and him wanting to deal with it with the staff. Again dont feel bad, this issue was dealt with swiftly and justly by the people that needed to deal with it, the rest of us just have to move on and forget about it. Hope that helps.

[forestfey]

A lot. Again, thanks for taking the time to clear this up for a way-to-self-aware and often-accidentally-labelled-as troll.
(In my experience, choosing a cognitive therapy approach in dealing with those usually leads to better long-term and "education" results than compared to feeding or starving them. Well done!
I never made any promises it would always be an easy ride with me, so, sorry for this great-wall-of-letters...)

btw general question: Is one allowed to report oneself if in doubt? I mean that! =)

Cheers!


EDIT: I take it you were put forward as the herald then, because it was you who brought me back home with you? Sucks to be you... xD

[skullywag]

You can report yourself if you want, the function is there, but the report function is for people breaking rules, if you think you have broken a rule, better off changing your post to better fit said rules.

[mumblemumble]

I just want to say, the picture really resonates with me : One of the biggest issues with the race dynamic is being offended where its UN-necessary, like the picture shown.

Theres a big difference between calling someone a nigger, when they are acting 100% correct, calling someone nigger when they are just being an asshole (and then someone says it out of ANGER, typically...because we say dumb shit when angry, and while not correct, or polite, its worth knowing if people say shit JUST out of anger) Calling someone a nigga in a friendly way, and calling someone a nigga in a disparaging way.

I've often seen more black people use nigga or nigger with MUCH more venom behind it than white people, saying blacks will never amount to anything because they are black, ect.

I think anytime race is brought up as an issue when its not, it throws the whole idea under the bus, and takes steps back.. ..which is one of the reasons race relations in America have completely gone to shit now.

One key think about racism : To morally get upset about "racism", one would have to do 1 of 2 things.

1 : check to see that absolutely NO OTHER FACTORS played a part in whatever happened... you cannot act like a jerk, then call racism when people treat you as a jerk.

2 : Say that your race innately has x. I don't like this idea, AT ALL, but it kinda sounds for many people, its on the tip of their tongue. People get mad over things, and judgements, and I often wonder if they think this internally. Granted I DISAGREE WITH THE IDEA WHOLEHEARTEDLY, but if people think this, KNOWING they think this is a good step in addressing issues.

Also, as said, above, racism from blacks, against whites, but especially other blacks must end...I've seen too much of where a black person is beaten or insulted for "not being black enough", not fitting with a cultural identity, and not even a healthy one...its a tribal approach, rather than trying to fit into a larger society.

....This is all just my 2 cents.

[forestfey]

Also, as said, above, racism from blacks, against whites, but especially other blacks must end...I've seen too much of where a black person is beaten or insulted for "not being black enough", not fitting with a cultural identity, and not even a healthy one...its a tribal approach, rather than trying to fit into a larger society.

That is indeed a problem, agreed!
I once was target of "reverse racism" myself, when I stayed in GB for 8 months: I was having an affair with a rastahman, who apparently thought my (non native-speaker's) use of the term "monkey" was racially motivated, even though I used it as a synonym for the vehicle we call the human body. Like in "take good care of your monkey, pls!"
He even confered with his "elders" to talk about this white girl witch with dreadlocks, get this?
I was REALLY dumbfounded when I found out. And not very happy, as you might imagine, since one simple question from him could have solved or prevented that misunderstanding.

In hindsight I can only say he was a jerk, and a very possessive one when it comes to that, too... *shrugs*
So yeah, there's that thing about being a total jerk and playing a specific card when it fits your personal manipulation agenda, regardless of skin-colour and heritage. Geeesh!
But fair enough, a lot of people hear what they habitually THINK they have to hear, and not what the other person really says... It's one of my recurring problems in inter-human relationships and communication

[mumblemumble]

This is the crux of many problems : People not bothering to clarify what people mean vs their own perceptions.

Many non blacks might ACTUALLY TRY using nigga as a friendly way, for instance, but will be demonized on it based on it not being a word to use, meanwhile blacks will use it as an awful title, dehumanizing them, and it will be tolerated "because they are black".

This is why it pays to clarify, and look up words

Bigot is a good example : someone who is intolerant of someone elses opinion.

Now I'm anti gay, anti trans, anti islam(at very least certain sects), but I am tolerant and respectful to those who are : I don't go around calling gays or transexuals faggots (not that name calling is a HUGE issue anyway, but I still dont), nor do I try and destroy their lives, I merely state I disagree, and why. I still give them the time of day, am polite, respect their space, safety, and property, and will serve them when it comes to employment or my own work.

By definition, I would say this isn't really intolerant : But tolerance ITSELF has been perverted : tolerance is SUPPOSED to mean "the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with."

Which means, YES, I dislike gays, and transsexuals, for instance (just using myself as example) But I tolerate them all the time, do not wig out, do not lose my cool.

But on the inverse, others seem to be very INTOLERANT, of say my opinions on above issue.. ...which would make them seem more bigoted than myself, considering they sometimes seem less likely to tolerate it, than I am to tolerate the things I dislike. And by definition, this seems to quantify them as more "bigoted" than myself.

But this isn't even to say being a "bigot" towards anything is the end all be all of evil, like genocide or cannibalizing babies or something : Its merely being intolerant and unwilling to hear it out and discuss things. I for one, am very bigoted against the advocacy of say, child molestation : I do not tolerate it, at all, but this STILL makes me a bigot : and I'm proud to be a so, for that, because child molestation (of actual children) is not something which I find can be tolerated, as tolerance of that is more harmful than INTOLERANCE.

In short, people need to calm the fuck down, words are words, and people blow things waaaaaaaay out of proportion. Even off color stuff like disliking minorities or other issues I think is not comparable to bringing them into ACTIONS : the only thing which should classify as hate speech is actually CALLING for the death, rape, assault, or whatever, of a group who are themselves causing no harm.

Also, I agree with the last part : english at least is amazingly specific in how you can phrase things, and its disgusting people cannot bother to TRY understanding. Ends up making people (white, black, mexican, asian, jewish, arabian, indian...whatever) end up looking like a bunch of monkies in how they ACT. Unless you have a language barrier (which is forgivable) its not cool to not try and understand.

Remember folks : getting mad and aggressive (physically, verbally, via economics or abuse of other systems) is the surefire way to have an issue on your hands : most people want to be live and let live, but if you get in peoples stuff, don't be shocked if people hate you back : Its why I cannot help but roll my eyes when people complain about people in antifa getting shot : they routinely attack people for different opinions, then ask why. Why indeed? Because you attacked people...

Learn to use the correct words people, and know what you say. Pretending you understand something and refusing to listen to criticism is the apex of ignorance. Unless theres EXPLICITELY something, do not get mad over something because its implied, by your subjective reasoning.

[Ramsis]

Holy crap this thread is making my head hurt.

[skullywag]

"Learn to use the correct words people"

EXPLICITELY

lol

[milon]

I'm going to ignore most of the posts here already and just respond to forestfey's first few posts:

Hi forestfey,
I'm sorry that it looked like we were ignoring you originally.  Personally, I didn't have anything worth contributing at the time, although I did see the thread.  I wish I had thought sooner of something worth posting - I actually tried to type a response several times, but it wasn't terribly helpful or on-point, so I eventually gave up.

Anyway, I can understand where you're coming from.  IRL, I'm a well educated guy who's education includes psychology & communication theory, and I know you're right - the written language leaves out all the visual/auditory clues, and we're all just left guessing at filling in those blanks.  It's especially difficult if English isn't your first language.  (I'll be honest: I'm a native English speaker, and even though I grew up with it, I know it's convoluted and ridiculously hard to learn.)  The online difficulties get even worse for a person who is on any sort of diagnostic spectrum (ADD, ADHD, Autism/Asperger's, etc).

We're all here because we love RimWorld.  It's an awesome game!  And we have a pretty awesome community too - you don't have to look far to find some pretty messed up online communities.  I'm glad you're a part of this one, and I'm glad you contribute to what makes the RimWorld forums great.  You come across as an intelligent, thoughtful person who actually thinks before clicking Post - that's a rarity these days, and I really appreciate it.  In short, please know that you're a valued member of this community. 

[forestfey]

cheers  to milon, thx! And Ramsis: sorry about that... perhaps that's in the nature of the "difficult" topic. And yes, I know that is an appeal to nature, hehe...